Open discussion: Art of battle system. | Forums

[NHLGoldenKnight]

This game is getting worse and worse and based on many suggestions here, it isn't getting any better. I am not sure if you guys play same game as I do but some of suggestions would make sure that this game loses the tiny little bit of medieval logic it has, and turns into Mortal Kombat, if isn't already.

[Tatsu147146]

This game is getting worse and worse and based on many suggestions here, it isn't getting any better. I am not sure if you guys play same game as I do but some of suggestions would make sure that this game loses the tiny little bit of medieval logic it has, and turns into Mortal Kombat, if isn't already.

Sorry bro, but like I have been told on countless times every time I have brought up historical accuracy or realism even by the community managers is that (unfortunately) this isn't meant to be a real simulator. This isn't to say that I don't want this to change I have probably been one of the community's members most actively trying to get the dev's attention to base the characters move sets to be from real manuscripts and actual fighting techniques (at least to my knowledge I am, if I'm not than I'd like to meet whoever is).

@Knight_Raime

Yes I do think that blocking shouldn't stop a chain since that is what parry is for (I was taught this during the small amount of time I had in fencing classes as a kid) but technically that's the movement they do when they block light attacks. Since in my opinion there should be conscious thought behind parrying they should take away the ability to stop attacks simply by blocking them, since blocking should be a way to stop from receiving a killing blow but not stop your opponent. On the other hand lights shouldn't cause too much damage to balance out the fact that they are no longer stopped by blocking. And Shugoki should have higher chip damage to keep his light attack different from everyone else.

[Knight_Raime]

This game is getting worse and worse and based on many suggestions here, it isn't getting any better. I am not sure if you guys play same game as I do but some of suggestions would make sure that this game loses the tiny little bit of medieval logic it has, and turns into Mortal Kombat, if isn't already.

Mortal kombat has juggling. None of the suggestions made here put combat even close to that. If you're going to comment about being against suggestions actually give feedback. Don't say the ideas are worse "cause" and then end your post.

Sorry bro, but like I have been told on countless times every time I have brought up historical accuracy or realism even by the community managers is that (unfortunately) this isn't meant to be a real simulator. This isn't to say that I don't want this to change I have probably been one of the community's members most actively trying to get the dev's attention to base the characters move sets to be from real manuscripts and actual fighting techniques (at least to my knowledge I am, if I'm not than I'd like to meet whoever is).

@Knight_Raime

Yes I do think that blocking shouldn't stop a chain since that is what parry is for (I was taught this during the small amount of time I had in fencing classes as a kid) but technically that's the movement they do when they block light attacks. Since in my opinion there should be conscious thought behind parrying they should take away the ability to stop attacks simply by blocking them, since blocking should be a way to stop from receiving a killing blow but not stop your opponent. On the other hand lights shouldn't cause too much damage to balance out the fact that they are no longer stopped by blocking. And Shugoki should have higher chip damage to keep his light attack different from everyone else.

Well some animations yes. But they're not doing the key part of shoving the blade off to the side. They kind of bat it away which is a good way to damage your weapon.

[ishisan4902]

1.How about adding more options to heavy attack what if you can soft feint heavy to light, gb, dodge or hard feint it to bait if all characters have this this will give more depth to offense.

2.Give all characters a bash on neutral but only to daze but no confirmed next hit.

3.Take out all 400ms attacks or give all characters lights with same speed.

4.Give everybody reflex guard.

5.heavy attack should kill on chip damage.

[NHLGoldenKnight]

Who cares about my feedback anyway?

I could tell you right away how it is not true that blocking is too easy, at least not for 80-85% of players but you would disagree. I could also tell you that there is a bunch of cheaters who make blocking looks easy and you wouldn't believe me.

All changes you guys suggest wouldn't change anything except damage further any slower type of hero. It is much easier to light spam than to defend properly and right now none of fast light spammers does any defending at all. Making blocking less useful would just benefit one group of players.

Blocking also should stop any chain unless it is dual wield hero. There is no any reason why blocking wouldn't stop chain when attacker doesn't dual wield, none whatsoever.

Then GB, that is probably most broken move in a whole game. GB should reward with heavy only if someone is thrown on the wall or on the ground. There is no reason why someone would just put their hand on je and magically I can't move for few seconds (or less). Rewardfor GB is too big without actually having to perform full move. It is nonsense that reward/risk is better for just GB than to perform throw or push completely. That is why everyone keeps cancelling everything just so they can get cheesy GB.

There wasn't reason to speed up game to the point where majority of mid tier players can't keep up anymore. In lab conditions 400ms doesn't sound that bad, however in real life situation it works differently. Average latency is not taken into account as well as other and rather often issues with Ubisoft "servers". It is getting near impossible to react on certain attacks unless you predict them and that is not what fighting game should be about, not this kind of game anyway.

Only thing they should have done is to keep light at 500ms as fastest and increase chip damage for blocking where heroes with faster attacks and smaller weapons would cause less chip damage and where slower heroes with large weapons would have higher chip damage stats. But it shouldn't be anything crazy, just little bit of something extra to motivate players to open up just a little bit.

I can speak from personal experience that the more Ubi is trying to speed up the game using wrong methods, the more I have to turtle when playing slow hero. They bring 400ms lights, they take away stamina management, and who benefits from all of that? Just fast heroes. And the more they benefit, more dangerous they are. And it means even more turtiling by big boys because there is nothing else to do.

[Tatsu147146]

Who cares about my feedback anyway?

I could tell you right away how it is not true that blocking is too easy, at least not for 80-85% of players but you would disagree. I could also tell you that there is a bunch of cheaters who make blocking looks easy and you wouldn't believe me.

All changes you guys suggest wouldn't change anything except damage further any slower type of hero. It is much easier to light spam than to defend properly and right now none of fast light spammers does any defending at all. Making blocking less useful would just benefit one group of players.

Blocking also should stop any chain unless it is dual wield hero. There is no any reason why blocking wouldn't stop chain when attacker doesn't dual wield, none whatsoever.

Then GB, that is probably most broken move in a whole game. GB should reward with heavy only if someone is thrown on the wall or on the ground. There is no reason why someone would just put their hand on je and magically I can't move for few seconds (or less). Rewardfor GB is too big without actually having to perform full move. It is nonsense that reward/risk is better for just GB than to perform throw or push completely. That is why everyone keeps cancelling everything just so they can get cheesy GB.

There wasn't reason to speed up game to the point where majority of mid tier players can't keep up anymore. In lab conditions 400ms doesn't sound that bad, however in real life situation it works differently. Average latency is not taken into account as well as other and rather often issues with Ubisoft "servers". It is getting near impossible to react on certain attacks unless you predict them and that is not what fighting game should be about, not this kind of game anyway.

Only thing they should have done is to keep light at 500ms as fastest and increase chip damage for blocking where heroes with faster attacks and smaller weapons would cause less chip damage and where slower heroes with large weapons would have higher chip damage stats. But it shouldn't be anything crazy, just little bit of something extra to motivate players to open up just a little bit.

I can speak from personal experience that the more Ubi is trying to speed up the game using wrong methods, the more I have to turtle when playing slow hero. They bring 400ms lights, they take away stamina management, and who benefits from all of that? Just fast heroes. And the more they benefit, more dangerous they are. And it means even more turtiling by big boys because there is nothing else to do.

You are right I don't believe you, you have no proof for your claims that 80-85% of the player base don't find it easy enough to block, I also don't believe (and you can't prove) that there as many people using cheats to block when they could be using cheats to parry, and this all falls apart when you take into account the fact that before the light "spam" problem there was the turtle meta and the majority of the community used that, so in fact they are fully capable of blocking.

Second, have you ever even gotten into anything even remotely related to sword fighting, even with sticks as a child, because if not than blocking isn't so safe as you say or think it is. Not to mention if you can't predict enemy attacks then you aren't analyzing the fight which is why light "spam" works well against lower level players. Fast characters who rely on light attacks and dodge attacks eventually get parried an punished.

Also 500ms light attacks are much easier to parry and punish than you think this is why a lot of people parry Gladiator relatively easy. And when you say slow heroes who do you mean because most of the slow heroes need reworks although not faster lights but some other way to put pressure on the enemy.

Finally the GB problem, there the risk reward is something I can agree on, a lot of high risk moves have low reward and low risk moves have high reward for no reason. On the other hand if you keep falling for a feint into GB than like I said before you need to read the fight because if you don't, than the fact you can't read it is the real problem and not some "cheesy" move used repeatedly on you that can be reacted to but you can't, that's what you're basing this of?

I honestly hate saying this but you have to get better to see just what we are talking about. This is still in a minimal way a skill based game and if you don't get better than things like GB and light spam will be a constant problem for you and higher skilled players will stomp you. But the problems you have mentioned are not as problematic once you get better and they become less useful in combat.

[KWi_08j]

@Knight_Raime

Yes I do think that blocking shouldn't stop a chain since that is what parry is for (I was taught this during the small amount of time I had in fencing classes as a kid) but technically that's the movement they do when they block light attacks. Since in my opinion there should be conscious thought behind parrying they should take away the ability to stop attacks simply by blocking them, since blocking should be a way to stop from receiving a killing blow but not stop your opponent. On the other hand lights shouldn't cause too much damage to balance out the fact that they are no longer stopped by blocking. And Shugoki should have higher chip damage to keep his light attack different from everyone else.

I can get behind this as it could bring a deference to the way defense would be looked at as blocking one light won’t save you from being pressured. It’s going to be hated at first I think it would be good to lower the damage of light attacks but don’t let blocking cancel them out. It seems a little more realistic to me than bouncing back like you were doing a charging attack against a wall.

I think lawbringer should get more chip damage as well as the Shugoki should.

[Knight_Raime]

1.How about adding more options to heavy attack what if you can soft feint heavy to light, gb, dodge or hard feint it to bait if all characters have this this will give more depth to offense.

2.Give all characters a bash on neutral but only to daze but no confirmed next hit.

3.Take out all 400ms attacks or give all characters lights with same speed.

4.Give everybody reflex guard.

5.heavy attack should kill on chip damage.

1) More options in kits is a good thing yes.

2) Disagree. I think all heros need an opener. But I don't think all openers should be bashes. if that makes sense.

3) I would say at the moment that the only 400ms attack that should be removed should probably be one of Nuxia's. We don't need to make all lights the same speed either. There are ways of making lights more viable without making them all unreactable.

4) This is a common asked thing that I agree with.

5) Kill and execute.

[Knight_Raime]

@NHLGoldenKnight

"Who cares about my feedback anyway?"

This is a thread specifically about giving feedback for making major changes to the game. If you've nothing to add about that then why bother commenting.

"I could tell you right away how it is not true that blocking is too easy, at least not for 80-85% of players but you would disagree. I could also tell you that there is a bunch of cheaters who make blocking looks easy and you wouldn't believe me."

It is. Even if your statistic was accurate games are supposed to balance from the top down. And it's entirely possible to have a game that works competitively but supports casual play. Super smash brothers is a fighting game series that more than accomplishes this. I don't play pc so I can't comment on cheaters. But I know that I play in high mid tier on console. Nearly everyone I fight is capable of blocking most things thrown at them. So unless you're actually suggesting that every single person i've fought for the past 3 months is a cheater then i'm not sure what you're getting at.

"All changes you guys suggest wouldn't change anything except damage further any slower type of hero. Making blocking less useful would just benefit one group of players."

The only slow hero in this game is Goki and it's universally agreed that he's a bad hero. Kits that also rely purely on counter attacks are also bad design. All kits need to be able to be decent at base for all things. And then heros can be built to be really good at one thing. For honor's hero design problem is not all of the heros were created equally. The changes do not make blocking less useful. They just make a strong defense as a concept harder to manage. The only actual change has been combos continue regardless of blocking. Which needs to happen. Because without combos the game heavily relies on single very powerful tools and high guaranteed damage on punishes. You can't not have "op moves" and easy strong defense. That's what was FH's problem at launch.

"Blocking also should stop any chain unless it is dual wield hero. There is no any reason why blocking wouldn't stop chain when attacker doesn't dual wield, none whatsoever."

What is your basis for this? realism? Because it makes sense in your head? It doesn't matter either way. Offense isn't a possible thing in this game because blocking is so strong. If you're landing constant hits now or seeing it happen then that's not the norm and said experiences shouldn't be the basis for the game as a whole.

"Then GB, that is probably most broken move in a whole game. GB should reward with heavy only if someone is thrown on the wall or on the ground. There is no reason why someone would just put their hand on je and magically I can't move for few seconds (or less). Rewardfor GB is too big without actually having to perform full move. It is nonsense that reward/risk is better for just GB than to perform throw or push completely. That is why everyone keeps cancelling everything just so they can get cheesy GB."

Guard breaks absolutely do not land against any competent player unless it's during a situation in which the person can't actually tech it because they're in a gb vulnerable period. If anything this statement proves you're playing a different game than a vast majority of players. None the less GB is a topic I covered. And what it does/rewards is a topic of discussion.

"There wasn't reason to speed up game to the point where majority of mid tier players can't keep up anymore. In lab conditions 400ms doesn't sound that bad, however in real life situation it works differently. Average latency is not taken into account as well as other and rather often issues with Ubisoft "servers". It is getting near impossible to react on certain attacks unless you predict them and that is not what fighting game should be about, not this kind of game anyway."

I've pretty much been in mid tier the entire time i've been on for honor. I've never once struggled to keep up with the change of pace of the game. Please don't make baseless claims. Connection is not a factor in balance because connection is never consistent. Also you clearly have little fighting game experience/knowledge. Unreactable attacks/mix ups exist in any main stay fighting game. Pure reactions don't allow a player for personal growth as it's pretty much impossible to get massively better reactions. Mind games exist to make fights more interesting and it also gives players with less strong reactions a chance to actually beat people with really good reactions.

"Only thing they should have done is to keep light at 500ms as fastest and increase chip damage for blocking where heroes with faster attacks and smaller weapons would cause less chip damage and where slower heroes with large weapons would have higher chip damage stats. But it shouldn't be anything crazy, just little bit of something extra to motivate players to open up just a little bit."

Lights do not do chip damage unless OOS because lights bounce off guard. So keeping lights at 500ms while increasing their chip damage makes zero sense. Increasing chip damage alone is not enough to make a move threatening especially if it's a slow one. Because slow ones are reactable and thus dodged or parried. And even if that wasn't the case chip doesn't kill. So the extra chip damage will not movtivate a player to open up.

[NHLGoldenKnight]

As I said, why bother? Because you are here to tell everyone how we are wrong and you are right. I was warned about you so long time ago, before I even joined forum and rightfully so. You are the cancer of this forum.

You come as so arrogant and so wrong at the same time that is almost unbelievable. But you are loudest here so I guess devs listen to people like you which is why we have current issues in the game. Detached from reality is how they call cases like this if I am mistaken.

Also, telling me how I shouldn't say something as if I am representing community while you are the one who is claiming how blocking is soo easy. For you or for community? Is that the same 1% players you are referring to? So we should balance game based on what, less than 100 players? Great business plan I must say. Those "elite" players who don't shy from cheating on tournaments and who have zero latency are perfect way to balance the game.

Because of people like you and poor dev decisions this game has turned from something very close to fighting simulator to complete hack and slash mindless type of game. Just keep doing great job, by the end of next year only you and your precious 1% will be playing this game.

PS, I have been playing all kind of games games for more time than you for sure 3 decades so far, and number of games I played is measured in hundreds. That is not reason why I think my opinion is more valuable but just explanation since your opinion is that I haven't played many fighting games. I guess not, if you take away 20 years of Tekken and number of years playing other fighting games.