Open discussion: Art of battle system. | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

There is merit in this idea of having two tiers of heavy attack. It would provide players with access to varied milisecond increments for attacks which would reduce parrying as this one stop shop tool for deleting your opponent's offensive options. And it would put the focus away from adding any more emphasis on 400ms attacks.

Combine it with feints being made less obvious and all heroes being given an opener of some kind and it could be something quite nice. A technique you learn at lower level but one that stays relevant all the way up to the highest level. Deepening along with the player's understanding of mind games. I'm just not sure how varied heavy attack timings would work for characters like Highlander or Shaolin who have to hold down the attack button to get into their stance change.

Something similar to this idea (in my mind anyway) is orochi's riptide strike. He could have his light and heavy version. two seperate inputs. But same speed. Heavy version is executable and unblockable. But can be semi charged to do more damage/be a mix up. On the opponents end they wouldn't be able to tell from animation. they'ed have to keep an eye out for the unblockable itself. And even then they couldn't just react to it because the timing could be slightly varied and it could be feinted. In other words it kind of plays on how rochi's storm rush and riptide work right now. Where you can't react on the back dodge alone. This would be adding onto it but also giving rochi a way to deal with external situations via unblockable.

[Knight_Raime]

Centurion do not agree with you.=) People block fast heavy and pretty often parry charged one. It's just the matter of time when timings will be learned and become useless.

@Knight_Raime

Maybe I see only now, but I'm glad people start to understand that overall battle system in For Honor is quite broken. I spoke about it right before my first break, in the middle of season 5. I understand, how hard could be to fix such a core gameplay mechanic, but without it game will become to something unplayable.
I should notice, that main problem here is that devs increase the distance between real fencing and Sould Calibur style fencing. For example, blocking. Let's say I'm in the fight with someone. We have swords and equal strength. If I start to hitting again and again from top and my opponent will block it, this not mean I'll lost all my stamina in a second and my opponent will use it to kick me off. When I hitting again and again, I put pressure to my opponent and his guard will be break once, or I could fast switch my next hit to shoulder bash that will be not predictable, cause opponent concentrate on blocking. In For Honor you could easily block attacks from any direction with no stress. Even 400ms lights do not put pressure to your opponent. He even will be relax enough to parry one of your light. If I switched my hit to SB, opponent will easily dodge it, cause he not concentrate on blocking. And in this situation only one person lose stamina.
Blocking in For Honor works like youe are Neo and your opponent Agent Smith in end scene of first Matrix. It's not a question, to defend yourself or not. If you see sitation is critical, you just block and dodge everything until you get revenge and stupid advantage in fight. Every player I meet nowadays stop fighting on the last bar of the health and become defence god and wait for revenge. Is it ok in real fencing? It's just impossible there.

The more devs concentrate on attack side and ignore defence side, the more broken gameplay will be.

And I really want classes will count again. I want to see how LB or Shugo scared four opponents around them as real tanks. I already tired to see Orochi easily parry fourth opponents or Shaolin block every attack even fainted one with this bare hand. Stop to do superheroes. Make players understand, that if they pick up an assassin this should work twice harder in 4v1 fights, than Shugo or LB. And even in 1v1 they should feel lack of defence cause of class.

Centurion's charged heavy is flawed because once you commit to the unblockable it's obvious. He can't fake people out with it. If the second heavy was unblockable practically instantly and could be feinted out of in the standard window all other unblockable feints have it could actually work as a proper mix up.

I mentioned in a different thread that I would have no issue with them trying to make the class system be a thing again as that's what the team fighting in this game was based off of. But we'd need to make sure every hero has the same fundamentals and then build off of that. The problem with the original class system is it didn't offer everyone the same opportunities to attack, defend, and punish. Those basic tools need to be the same across the board. If we want to have heavies have special tanking properties or blocking properties that's fine. So long as everyone can still defend from the same things in a basic manner. etc.

[Knight_Raime]

A number of players (including myself when I made a thread on it months ago) have noted the way this game lets you block indefinitely is problematic. And the devs wonder why there's a turtle meta?!

Now we're at a point where so much of the game is based on blocking, that if you change the blocking mechanic you're going to **** up 90 million things at the same time.

I don't think FH can be saved, mechanics-wise. Everything the devs have done has essentially been fixing/mitigating the negatives of a system that's inherently faulty. I should rephrase, I do think it's possible, BUT I don't think it's realistic. Giving blocking the revamp it needs in order to make fights flow better would likely lead to drastic changes in gameplay, both ****ing up a bunch of other things in the game and changing the overall identity. The devs seem happy with the game's identity overall and just want to make small changes to push play styles in certain directions.

I didn't watch the den, But the fact that they're looking into making feinting better/more active in things and looking to increase offensive capability globally without a massive speed increase and the mention of delays gives me hope that they would consider changing blocking. But we just have to see how they actually do things because often what they say doesn't match up with what they do.

[DefiledDragon]

I've weighed in on this issue before in other threads. I've been a bit reluctant to do so in this instance because I think that my vision for the game, or rather, what I would like the game to be(come) is probably quite different to most and likely won't be a popular opinion among existing players, but I'll throw my 2p in nonetheless, for what it's worth. Do bear in mind that this is all just my opinion and it is no more or less valid than anybody else's nor do I make any claim of expertise.

My background is, like many others I imagine, traditional 2d and 2.5d fighters. SF, MK, FF, Tekken, DOA, Injustice, KoF, MvC and so on. I was drawn to FH largely because of the aesthetic of the game and the fact that I love anything medieval, be it RPG's, RTS, fighting games or whatever. However, while I find the combat viscerally satisfying, it is, in my opinion, mechanically somewhat lacking.

So, on to my major gripe. The pacing. The pace of combat in FH is tragically slow. This is especially prevalent at higher levels of play where players will be extremely reluctant to commit to any kind of offence and spend almost all their time trying to goad each other into a punishable reaction. While this sounds reasonable on paper and is a core aspect of any fight, the nature of the mechanics in FH make the process incredibly slow paced and boring, in my opinion.

The issue with pacing boils down to the awesome power of defence and the impotence of offence. The simple act of blocking a light attack resets the fight. Parrying a heavy attack and administering whatever punishment your character is capable of resets the fight. Unlock rolling resets the fight, in most instances. There are exceptions to this depending on who you play as and what their available mix ups are, but in many cases, a successful defensive move resets the fight to neutral. This gives a very stop-start feel to the combat and it's not something I'm a fan of. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a thoughtful, tactical bout but at the same time I also believe in the ability to apply consistent pressure to your opponent and this is what's lacking in the game.

So, with all that said, what would I like to see? Well, for starters I would like to see chains continue, even when blocked. Even light chains. I don't know if anyone who plays FH has ever engaged in or watched an actual sword fight, but when somebody strikes at you with their weapon and you block the attack, their weapon does not "bounce off" and in most cases, they will follow it up with another strike from a different angle, or maybe even a different type of strike that can involve their weapon or not, depending on the weapon and the style employed. I would like to see more of this in FH.

I would also like to see defending made more skill based (timing based) with the removal of static guard with all heroes going to a fast decay reflex guard, somewhere in the region of 75ms, maybe 100ms but the numbers could be tweaked.

I believe the parry windows should be shortened dramatically (or maybe even removed altogether) to something like 50ms from the 200ms it is now. It's way too easy to parry and the rewards for doing so are ridiculous in the case of light attacks.

I would like to see bashes removed and replaced with other options that can be executed during a chain. So, for example, Conqueror could use his shield as a weapon, mid chain, for slightly higher damage than a light attack but with no possibility of an execution in the event that it kills you. Same goes for Warden, who could work thrusting attacks and pommel strikes into his chains in a similar way. Other heroes kits could be similarly reworked based on their available equipment and their fighting style.

All the characters need longer chains. Two hit chains are pointless and offer zero tactical depth or opportunities to apply pressure. The shortest chains in the game should be 3 hits and the longest perhaps upwards of 5 or more. Infinite combo's should be removed and replaced with proper chains.

Guard breaks should be changed to a techable grapple that allows you to push or throw your opponent and should be executable mid chain so environmental advantages can still be taken but the free hit opportunity should be removed.

Unlock attacks like Shinobi's slide, LB's impale, Raiders stampede etc... are fine and are really useful in 4 v 4's although their tracking should be removed to prevent abuse in 1 v 1's (Shinobi/Warlord) so they are only really viable against unsuspecting foes, i.e. people already engaged with a teammate.

I think those changes (and possibly others that may occur to me at a later date) would give the combat a much more dynamic and fast paced feel, while retaining much of the visceral nature of the game and at the same time bring it a few steps closer to what an actual fight with the weapons each character employs might look like and I believe the game would be better for it.

[Knight_Raime]

@DefiledDragon

"I would like to see chains continue, even when blocked. Even light chains."

I more or less want this as well. I was unsure about lights in chain being blocked on continuing. But I deff think lights from neutral/chain starting lights shouldn't bounce.

"I would also like to see defending made more skill based (timing based) with the removal of static guard with all heroes going to a fast decay reflex guard, somewhere in the region of 75ms, maybe 100ms but the numbers could be tweaked."

I think the best out come we can have with blocking being changed would be a fast ish decay like shinobi's. maybe slightly faster. But you can hold guard in that direction to keep it up. We can't go as low as glad's block decay though.

"I believe the parry windows should be shortened dramatically."

200ms is already really short. Parrying is easy not because the window is forgiving but because the pace of the game being slow, the majority of the attacks being slow ish especially in combo, and the fact that we force attacks to 100ms increments. If we address these issues and take less importance off of parries then parries themselves don't need to become harder like you're wanting.

"I would like to see bashes removed and replaced with other options that can be executed during a chain."

There is no need to remove something at this point. Ideally we should have bashes still exist as options. Just not things that are relied upon. And we should also have more options with chains rather than attack or base feint. Like being able to dodge out of a heavy to a dodge light that chains, or fitting in zone and being able to chain off of that. etc.

"All the characters need longer chains. Two hit chains are pointless and offer zero tactical depth or opportunities to apply pressure. The shortest chains in the game should be 3 hits and the longest perhaps upwards of 5 or more. Infinite combo's should be removed and replaced with proper chains."

Agreed. All though I think the possibility of being able to chain forever should exist. Like aramusha with deadly feints.

"Guard breaks should be changed to a techable grapple that allows you to push or throw your opponent and should be executable mid chain so environmental advantages can still be taken but the free hit opportunity should be removed."

So basically what we have now but in chain and you can't attack on guard break? Maybe. Throw distance would need to be looked at. As punishes with splats vary a lot based on distance.
Everyone would need to be able to get something wether they threw them next to a wall or there was decent space with the wall. And how would this translate for OOS punishes when your throw puts them on the floor? Because a lot of the punishes depend on you attacking at a specific time after you throw them. Some of them immediately after you throw them. Personally I like the chain idea. You also have to consider that GB into heavy is how people get executions. which are vital for most modes. If you remove the ability to attack on GB then you kinda ruin that. Just food for thought.

[DefiledDragon]

@KnightRaime

Agreed. All though I think the possibility of being able to chain forever should exist. Like aramusha with deadly feints.

Well the way I would have guard work is that just blocking an attack wouldn't prevent any followup, regardless. Imagine Aramusha's infinite light against a reflex guard that doesn't stop lights. It would be a nightmare to deal with. With the guard you suggest, where follow up lights are blocked (or "bounce off"), it wouldn't be so bad.

So basically what we have now but in chain and you can't attack on guard break? Maybe. Throw distance would need to be looked at. As punishes with splats vary a lot based on distance.
Everyone would need to be able to get something wether they threw them next to a wall or there was decent space with the wall. And how would this translate for OOS punishes when your throw puts them on the floor? Because a lot of the punishes depend on you attacking at a specific time after you throw them. Some of them immediately after you throw them. Personally I like the chain idea. You also have to consider that GB into heavy is how people get executions. which are vital for most modes. If you remove the ability to attack on GB then you kinda ruin that. Just food for thought.[/QUOTE]

Not really. More like what we have now, but without the first stage. First, you get the actual guard break, then you decide if you want to throw an attack or continue with the throw. I propose making it go straight to the throw (still directable), but you can insert it into a chain instead of a strike. Not as a feint, but as a natural move within the chain itself, with no limitation on where in the chain it can be thrown. The tech for it might need to be a reversal of some sort, to make it a high risk, high reward manoeuvre where you get a ledge/spike or a wall splat if successful but if not, your opponent gets an immediate riposte with potential follow up.

[Knight_Raime]

@DefiledDragon

"Well the way I would have guard work is that just blocking an attack wouldn't prevent any followup, regardless. Imagine Aramusha's infinite light against a reflex guard that doesn't stop lights. It would be a nightmare to deal with. With the guard you suggest, where follow up lights are blocked (or "bounce off"), it wouldn't be so bad."

My personal problem with infinite combos is the fact that it easily lets someone mash out. I like Aramusha's deadly feints because of the fact that it technically would allow you to keep attacking.
So long as you can keep up on using that mechanic properly and it was paying off. We could technically go with your suggestion about no lights bouncing off even in combo by mixing that in with my guard idea. Where if you're just taping your guard in that direction then the combo won't stop. But if you're actively holding your guard in that direction it would (still referring to in combo attacks only.) No idea how that would go down programming wise though.

"Not really. More like what we have now, but without the first stage."

I see. So how would you handle OOS throws then in regards to punishment? And what about executions?

"but as a natural move within the chain itself, with no limitation on where in the chain it can be thrown."

So basically like centurion's quick throw but not limited to only coming after lights?

[SpaceJim12]

@Vakris_One @Knight_Raime

I mentioned in a different thread that I would have no issue with them trying to make the class system be a thing again as that's what the team fighting in this game was based off of. But we'd need to make sure every hero has the same fundamentals and then build off of that. The problem with the original class system is it didn't offer everyone the same opportunities to attack, defend, and punish. Those basic tools need to be the same across the board. If we want to have heavies have special tanking properties or blocking properties that's fine. So long as everyone can still defend from the same things in a basic manner. etc.

I disagree with the last part. All heroes should have enough options so as to be viable in both 1v1s and group fights. Designing a character to only be good in one mode is how we got the likes of Raider and most recently Jiang Jun, despite the devs saying they wanted more heroes to be viable in all modes.

Kensei's rework is living proof that you can have a hero who can do well in both modes because his power is more or less equally distributed across the whole of his kit - i.e. he is not a one trick pony, rather he has to use his whole kit in order to prevail.

I didn't mean to make assassins helpless in 4v4 battles.=) I just tried to say you don't care now, which character you play on. You can parry everything and use same stratagy on Orochi and Lb both. I think it's not right. For example, when I played Shinobi, I mostly use dodge as a tool in 1vX fights. So let the heavy classes be no-move towers in 1vX fights and let assassins to rely on dodging at the same situation.

And I agree with Vakris about Kensei. As far as I can see now Kensei looks like most balanced and well-made character for For Honor. He really require your head and hand to play against skilled opponent, but you really do not feel frustrating using his kit. But still I'm in love with Nobushi and so hope she will get same rework, as Kensei have.

[KWi_08j]

I think blocking should be used for you to only take chip damage but not stop/cancel out another characters combo. I believe the blocking should be used to keep from taking heavy damage but not save you from being pressured as attacks are still coming at you. This is where parry could come into play as they should be what are used to stop a combo as like a combo breaker but in all situations it should only guarantee a light attack to let you try to start applying pressure to your opponent. There are just some characters to who get canceled out by one block. This idea isn’t complete but it can allow a little more room to find options to make it tougher on the defender and force them to not just stay on the defensive. (Maybe).

[Knight_Raime]

I think blocking should be used for you to only take chip damage but not stop/cancel out another characters combo. I believe the blocking should be used to keep from taking heavy damage but not save you from being pressured as attacks are still coming at you. This is where parry could come into play as they should be what are used to stop a combo as like a combo breaker but in all situations it should only guarantee a light attack to let you try to start applying pressure to your opponent. There are just some characters to who get canceled out by one block. This idea isn’t complete but it can allow a little more room to find options to make it tougher on the defender and force them to not just stay on the defensive. (Maybe).

Blocks not stopping combos seems to be a running theme for most people i've talked to. So perhaps the devs should look into that.