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I think we arent supposed to bump threads... but seriously this is relevent and id really like some dev or Ubi input on this idea.Originally Posted by nf_Straydog Go to original post
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Update, I found some videos with more support for this idea. The first is the infamous Kenzo vs. Spliced video
We can see here Spliced exploiting an unlock tech which uses turnaround sprints to create distance without being vulnerable to GB. Then he fights from outside the Warden's effective range by block-shoving Warden's gap closer and using the turnaround sprint to whiff punish shoulder bash. This just goes to show that if players feel that they need a tool and the game does not allow it, the players will push and fight against the framework of the game, and eventually, it will break. Just watching this video is eminently frustrating because it's just ugly to watch the characters move in this unnatural way, and the tech is pretty risk free which is obviously terrible for game health. But you can clearly see that just having a way to stay outside the Warden's effective range improves Lawbringer's chances to win immensely.
Now, wouldn't it be much better if instead of a risk free distance creator, we maintained our risky distance creator of locked on backdash, but had a way to prevent the closing of distance in the first place? As stated earlier in the thread, a character like Warden needs to be in close proximity to be dangerous. The ideal structure of an interaction would be:
-needing to make a good decision and take a risk in neutral to get within engagement range
-once you're in effective range, the enemy must take a risk to get back to footsies range, or outscrap you.
And then once you have that structure, you can focus on giving rushdown characters tools to make them more sticky, punish escape attempts harder on a read etc. and keepaway characters to have better keepaway tools or better disengage tools (such as Nobushi's retreat or Shinobi's retreat.)
Obviously, we do not want to see tech like the one featured in the video, where you escape risk free and just constantly run away. It would also be a mistake to just patch it out without recognizing the need that it fills for the players and the game and having a solid plan for how to fix the hole that removing it will cause.
Think of the potential for uniqueness that you could bring to certain characters and the expansion of possible rework ideas.
-Centurion, make him more focused on sticking on top of targets and pressuring them with his fast close range moves, and give him a tool that punishes a backdash hard on a read (maybe if you kick someone while they're backdashing they fall down. Maybe you give him a forward dash guard break, that automatically does the parry knee punish.)
-Shugoki, make him more focused on cornering opponents and preventing them from getting off the wall. He already has two very high knockback moves that are effective at putting people against the wall, but because of certain free techniques for creating distance (like just throwing a guard break and letting the tech animation separate you,) it's very easy to escape. I've been saying since day 1 that it's too easy to move around wherever you want for free in this game.
And here is another video featuring the same tech, for Ubisoft's review.
Edit: it is briefly touched on above, but in order to make keep away work, guard break teching will obviously need to be changed to not shove opponents as far away as they currently do. Perhaps shoving people far away on gb tech could be a maneuver specific to certain characters.
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Those are some really interesting ideas you have about the meta. I never thought of it that way. Probably because I was so focused on how I might make more characters have a reliable offense and not just be good counter attackers (in varying degrees of course) because I only saw the defensive meta as a problem. In terms of Conqueror though I would make a whiffed shield bash take longer for him to recover because he shouldn't be able to recover so quickly because that prevents many characters who dodge it unable to punish him.
I would love to see if Ubisoft experimented with these ideas and see what they think.
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The counterplay to someone walking forwards is to walk backwards... control the space between you and make sure you exploit your positioning to your advantage.. if your character has stumpy range your opponent will be able to get a first strike on you (or vice versa). You can use your spacing to wiff an attack & hit your opponent, thrown a feint to start or as above go for a 'hail mary' - although its not a hail mary if you have been reacting in a certain way for 2 mins and suddenly break pattern, more of a bait..
I don't mean to come across as harsh but this is a terrible idea that seems mostly based on the conq having a recovery frame on missed bash that is to fast for most chars to punish, which should be addressed in balance. I'd suggest a significant stamina penalty on a missed bash (greater than the wardens given the fast recovery and easy of defence on the conq to defend) - I know conq's not the purpose of the thread but just to highlight- ubi stated conq was the direction of the future, not that he's perfect in every way.
