Requesting the devs the buff weak heroes rather than nurfing the strong ones | Forums

[darksavior1977]

Strong heroes:
Kensei, Warden, Conqueror, Berzerker, Highlander, Shaman, Valkyrie, Tiandi, Shaolin, Jiang Jun,

Weak Heroes Needing reworks:
Peacekeeper, Raider, Lawdad...bringer, Shugoki

Heroes not weak enough to need a full rework but needing some tweaks/buffs:
Gladiator, Centurion, Warlord, Aramusha, Orochi, Nobushi, Shinobi, Nuxia

I am not going to go into specific detail about what tweaks, buffs, and reworks I think are needed here, but that is my general perception of where the heroes stand now. Top tier players are good enough that they can make most any character work, because they all have the same baseline mechanics for revenge, blocks, dodges, and parries, but in my view, several heroes have to work really hard at it compared to others. I also think the weak ones should be brought up to the strong ones, not the other way around, because the strong ones are working well in the game as it stands, and help eliminate the eternal turtle meta. The weak ones need more offense and defense options, and the reworks are just that, these characters no longer make sense in the current state of the game with more aggressive offense and ways to penetrate defenses and force reactions.

I will offer that I think at this stage of the game, and in response to it becoming more offensive to break the turtling, all characters should have a solid opener, strong light/heavy mixups, soft feints as well as hard, and a heavy unblockable (not the zone attack) in their kit imo.

[dedric_branford]

I disagree. Powerful characters should be toned down considerably. Older characters should be beefed up but new characters should not be so far ahead as to ruin older characters.

If not then it's going to boil down to "he who hits successfully first, wins".

not necessarily mix ups can also be countered my making reads. if a hero want to hit 1st then it can be countered by a number of ways. like kensei can use his side dodge heavys.
the key part is have a mixup tool that forces reads.
A weak hero can defeat a strong hero by countering his attacks style, that does not mean U nerf the strong hero with a mix up tool . Giving the weak hero with a valid mixup tool is better .

[CRIMS0NM0NKEY]

Strong heroes:
Kensei, Warden, Conqueror, Berzerker, Highlander, Shaman, Valkyrie, Tiandi, Shaolin, Jiang Jun,

Weak Heroes Needing reworks:
Peacekeeper, Raider, Lawdad...bringer, Shugoki

Heroes not weak enough to need a full rework but needing some tweaks/buffs:
Gladiator, Centurion, Warlord, Aramusha, Orochi, Nobushi, Shinobi, Nuxia

I am not going to go into specific detail about what tweaks, buffs, and reworks I think are needed here, but that is my general perception of where the heroes stand now. Top tier players are good enough that they can make most any character work, because they all have the same baseline mechanics for revenge, blocks, dodges, and parries, but in my view, several heroes have to work really hard at it compared to others. I also think the weak ones should be brought up to the strong ones, not the other way around, because the strong ones are working well in the game as it stands, and help eliminate the eternal turtle meta. The weak ones need more offense and defense options, and the reworks are just that, these characters no longer make sense in the current state of the game with more aggressive offense and ways to penetrate defenses and force reactions.

I will offer that I think at this stage of the game, and in response to it becoming more offensive to break the turtling, all characters should have a solid opener, strong light/heavy mixups, soft feints as well as hard, and a heavy unblockable (not the zone attack) in their kit imo.

I agree nearly 100 percent with this list except Pk just needs her old kit back to be viable and Valkyrie needs her old shield tackle kit so people will actually use her otherwise she is a one trick pony like raider.

[dedric_branford]

Strong heroes:
Kensei, Warden, Conqueror, Berzerker, Highlander, Shaman, Valkyrie, Tiandi, Shaolin, Jiang Jun,

Weak Heroes Needing reworks:
Peacekeeper, Raider, Lawdad...bringer, Shugoki

Heroes not weak enough to need a full rework but needing some tweaks/buffs:
Gladiator, Centurion, Warlord, Aramusha, Orochi, Nobushi, Shinobi, Nuxia

I am not going to go into specific detail about what tweaks, buffs, and reworks I think are needed here, but that is my general perception of where the heroes stand now. Top tier players are good enough that they can make most any character work, because they all have the same baseline mechanics for revenge, blocks, dodges, and parries, but in my view, several heroes have to work really hard at it compared to others. I also think the weak ones should be brought up to the strong ones, not the other way around, because the strong ones are working well in the game as it stands, and help eliminate the eternal turtle meta. The weak ones need more offense and defense options, and the reworks are just that, these characters no longer make sense in the current state of the game with more aggressive offense and ways to penetrate defenses and force reactions.

I will offer that I think at this stage of the game, and in response to it becoming more offensive to break the turtling, all characters should have a solid opener, strong light/heavy mixups, soft feints as well as hard, and a heavy unblockable (not the zone attack) in their kit imo.

I strongly agree with your opinion . U summarized the information in an proper manner. heroes that are weak ones should employ proper offense.i Cannot find many players that like the old meta.

[CRIMS0NM0NKEY]

I liked the turtle meta. It took better reaction time then just mashing buttons to win like an orochi is known for.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Pk's old kit was more limited than the current, her damage made up for it, so turtles were really effective with her. I don't think she should be a parry god, she should be an offensive hero (though they should buff the damage, it should be nothing near it was). Pk should be a fast, mobile and mixup intensive hero, with short range, low damage and bad defense/low punishes as drawback. We are halfway with her, she got the drawbacks, now she needs some advantages.

[dedric_branford]

I liked the turtle meta. It took better reaction time then just mashing buttons to win like an orochi is known for.

Dude remember the long stare downs player experienced during the trutle meta?
playing duels seemed soo frustrating i would rage quit. the player that attacked 1st would usually lose in the trutle meta. thet would just wait for u to make a move.

really thankful ti the devs for removing the turtle meta

[Siegfried-Z]

It seems that everyone shares differing opinions on which heroes are strong and weak. In your opinion, which heroes do you consider to be weak or strong, and why?

First, i think you should have as main goal to consider Kensei or Valk as the level every char should be. They are strong but balanced. I really don't want every Char to be at JJ level...

But below, what you ask for in my opinion with as much details as possible (from rep 132 PS4 player) :

Knights :

Warden - Among Top Char in Duel and strong in 4V4
COnq - Best duelist and strong in 4V4
PK - Correct in 1v1 but very weak in 4V4
LB - Weak in 1v1 but still strong in 4V4
Cent - Correct in both
Glad - Very strong in 1v1 but very weak in 4V4

Vikings :

Raider - A bit weak in 1v1 but a real beast in 4v4
Warlord - Correct in Both
Zerk - Beast in 1v1 and strong in 4v4
valk - I believe among the top 1v1 char now but just correct in 4v4
HL - Good in both
Shaman - Strong too in Both

Samurais :

Kensei - Correct/good in 1v1 and really strong in 4v4
Shugo - Weak in 1v1 but still good in 4v4
Orochi - Correct in Both, a bit weak in 4v4
Nobushi - Weak in 1v1 but correct in 4v4
Shinobi - Strong in 1v1 and correct in 4v4
Musha - Correct in Both (a bit weak)

WuLin :

Tiandi : Good in both
JJ - Strong in 1v1 and Best of the game by far in 4v4
Shaolin - Very strong in 1v1 and strong in 4v4
Nuxia - Strong in 1v1 but weak in 4v4


So, to summer up.

Char which needs help in 1v1 :

LB - Maybe a faster shove from neutral and a softfeint on first heavy mix up ? I don't play LB so i'm of course not one of the best advices, LB main are welcome
Raider - Maybe speed up his opening lights and in another hands reduce by 5/10 dmg his zone
Shugo - What about his mix up on heavies and Ub becoming softfeint ? Now with hardfeint it is so slow you can just back dodge most of the times. He should also be able to front dash headbutt from neutral with following light. It would help him to be agressive and not threading all the times.
Nobushi - Just speed up her lights by 100ms

Char which needs help in 4v4 :

PK - She should having her old DMG back but with current kit OR if not then why not less stam cost on zone mix up and second hit of the zone UB. She needs something to kill faster in 4v4
Glad - Glad problem in 4v4 is his broken Guard. Glad guard should become as long as others assassins, that's important. He should also has guaranteed light after a punch


Char overall ok but which needs some work btw :

Cent - His zone should be feintable after first hit un his UB should be feintable
Warlord - He should be able to use full guard just as Conq, with softfeint and real guaranteed hit. He should also have heavy after a light UB to really force reaction
Roch - Where is the tozen kick ?
Nobu - I don't know how but something is needed
Musha - Give him back his old kit ! No ones asked these changes with MF and that just killed him. Plus, maybe a side heavy dash.

And, sorry but Conq and JJ should be nerf a bit.

[CRIMS0NM0NKEY]

Pk's old kit was more limited than the current, her damage made up for it, so turtles were really effective with her. I don't think she should be a parry god, she should be an offensive hero (though they should buff the damage, it should be nothing near it was). Pk should be a fast, mobile and mixup intensive hero, with short range, low damage and bad defense/low punishes as drawback. We are halfway with her, she got the drawbacks, now she needs some advantages.

Your right what I mean is her damage should be put back. PK was mix-up intensive and still is. The only problem with her is her damage output was Nerfed to the ground as well as her distance. She was definitely 's tier before so it stands to reason she would be viable if placed back to get original condition. Plus it's a simple request.

[dedric_branford]

First, i think you should have as main goal to consider Kensei or Valk as the level every char should be. They are strong but balanced. I really don't want every Char to be at JJ level...

But below, what you ask for in my opinion with as much details as possible (from rep 132 PS4 player) :

Knights :

Warden - Among Top Char in Duel and strong in 4V4
COnq - Best duelist and strong in 4V4
PK - Correct in 1v1 but very weak in 4V4
LB - Weak in 1v1 but still strong in 4V4
Cent - Correct in both
Glad - Very strong in 1v1 but very weak in 4V4

Vikings :

Raider - A bit weak in 1v1 but a real beast in 4v4
Warlord - Correct in Both
Zerk - Beast in 1v1 and strong in 4v4
valk - I believe among the top 1v1 char now but just correct in 4v4
HL - Good in both
Shaman - Strong too in Both

Samurais :

Kensei - Correct/good in 1v1 and really strong in 4v4
Shugo - Weak in 1v1 but still good in 4v4
Orochi - Correct in Both, a bit weak in 4v4
Nobushi - Weak in 1v1 but correct in 4v4
Shinobi - Strong in 1v1 and correct in 4v4
Musha - Correct in Both (a bit weak)

WuLin :

Tiandi : Good in both
JJ - Strong in 1v1 and Best of the game by far in 4v4
Shaolin - Very strong in 1v1 and strong in 4v4
Nuxia - Strong in 1v1 but weak in 4v4


So, to summer up.

Char which needs help in 1v1 :

LB - Maybe a faster shove from neutral and a softfeint on first heavy mix up ? I don't play LB so i'm of course not one of the best advices, LB main are welcome
Raider - Maybe speed up his opening lights and in another hands reduce by 5/10 dmg his zone
Shugo - What about his mix up on heavies and Ub becoming softfeint ? Now with hardfeint it is so slow you can just back dodge most of the times. He should also be able to front dash headbutt from neutral with following light. It would help him to be agressive and not threading all the times.
Nobushi - Just speed up her lights by 100ms

Char which needs help in 4v4 :

PK - She should having her old DMG back but with current kit OR if not then why not less stam cost on zone mix up and second hit of the zone UB. She needs something to kill faster in 4v4
Glad - Glad problem in 4v4 is his broken Guard. Glad guard should become as long as others assassins, that's important. He should also has guaranteed light after a punch


Char overall ok but which needs some work btw :

Cent - His zone should be feintable after first hit un his UB should be feintable
Warlord - He should be able to use full guard just as Conq, with softfeint and real guaranteed hit. He should also have heavy after a light UB to really force reaction
Roch - Where is the tozen kick ?
Nobu - I don't know how but something is needed
Musha - Give him back his old kit ! No ones asked these changes with MF and that just killed him. Plus, maybe a side heavy dash.

And, sorry but Conq and JJ should be nerf a bit.

In season 6 recap the devs explicitly mentioned they are hesitant in nerfing strong tools. like the shield Bash. As U r a ps4 player reacting to a shield bash may be harder because of 30 fps.In Pc it can be countered my making proper reads. A proper gladiator can cause a lot of problems for a veteran conc player and destroy him. JJ does not have a proper opener. simply side dodging can help any hero to avoid his mix up.