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  1. #1
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    [PVP] Skill vs Gear

    Here's a thread for ya'. The thread title might bring you laugh. "Skill in Division pvp? Ha!"

    It is true, though. The skill in this game is pretty non-existent. I myself have even said there was a false sense of it when everyone was running the same Striker build. However, I stumbled upon a build that truly exemplifies the lack of skill in the game, or the persuasion of skill, while also positioning itself as the most skillful build in the game: The Hexotic. With it, I also found a set up that makes it the most synergized solo build in the game.

    In regards to this game, I think skill is being able to master a requirement's inconvenience, or negative, in order to use its payoff to your advantage, because often times, that payoff is greater, at least on paper. Many gear sets in the game are pretty skill-less. Their bonuses don't really come with any negatives or inconvenient requirements. Inconvenience is relative and I chose this word because PVP in this game is pretty one dimensional.

    To demonstrate what I mean by inconvenience, let's take a look at some aspects of the game that are actually relatively inconvenient:

    Nimble
    Tactical Advance
    Robust
    Bliss holster
    Burst rifles
    Sturdy
    Reckless (currently)

    • Nimble requires you to perform a cover to cover in order to gain free health. It's not instant like it once was, but this is inconvenient because Division 1 is currently less about playing from cover. However, Nimble's payoff is greater because you don't have to waste your First Aid or med kit in order to gain health.
    • Tactical Advance also requires you to perform a cover to cover, except you get a 1% damage bonus increase for each meter covered with a maximum of 30%. This is inconvenient because you have to remember to perform this manually, think about when and where to run to, and hope you don't get shot in the back. This payoff is great because there isn't many other ways in the game to get a free 30% or greater damage increase, other than Tactical Link, or what is referred to as an "I win" button.
    • Burst rifles have the highest damage per bullet in the game, however, they are inconvenient because headshot damage was nerfed, there is too much abuse of the strafing, and high RPM weapons can hold up to 70 bullets in one magazine, with good accuracy ratings and little to no recoil.
    • Robust gives you a 10% increase to Armor while in cover. This is inconvenient because you have to play from cover and while in cover, you do not have the strafing capabilities as someone who is playing out of cover.
    • Bliss holster requires you to land shots on a target with a pistol, and with each shot landed, you gain a 2% damage increase for all weapons for 20 seconds. This is inconvenient because you have to put away your main weapons and use a pistol. They themselves are pretty inconvenient and pulling out a pistol in a normal gunfight puts yourself at a disadvantage, especially in this high RPM meta. If you figured out the safest way to get the Bliss holster bonus (I have), then you my friend have taken the first steps to mastering its inconvenience.
    • Sturdy gives you a 15% armor increase when staying in the same cover for more than 4 seconds. Its inconvenience is similar to Robust.
    • And Reckless drops your toughness by 10% in order to gain an 8% damage increase. Those numbers used to be flipped.


    There are more, but these are just some of the aspects of the game that I think requires skill, or mastering inconvenience. My Hexotic build utilizes Smart Cover (damage resistance, accuracy and stability increase) and Centurion (10% RPM buff to all weapons on kill), so in combination with Tactical Advance, Bliss and Robust or Barret's, you start to see where the skill and synergy comes alive.

    With many of the gear sets, there isn't any inconvenient requirements in order to gain a bonus, with the exception of maybe Deadeye or Firecrest. They are simply equip and stuff all of your points into a main stat. Some gear sets are easy to handle in a fight, others are pretty counter-less.

    So the TL;DR question is: should gear [sets] have inconvenient requirements? I think so. I don't think gear [sets] would be complained about if there were layers of inconvenience involved that someone actually mastered. Division 2 is looking to add requirements for gear in order to have bonuses active, however from what we have of the game so far, those requirements only pertain to a stat requirement rather than a gameplay requirement.
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  2. #2
    Classified gearsets do much of the work for players since 1.8 also the removal of freindly fire has created a bunch of players whos aiming accuracy and timing is not as good as players who played with it on. Ever wondered how a team of 4 can manhunt 8-16 players. Well a team of day 1 players knows how and what it takes to win without chessy classifieds, those players also played when friendly fire was active, meaning their accuracy and timing will most likely be better than those who never experienced friendly fire. Players who joined the game after 1.8 i believe have way less skill, its not their fault because the game has given them what they need to win.
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  3. #3
    xX_Cyanide_Xx's Avatar Member
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    I disagree. There are some players who do have a high degree of skill, and I've personally seen some of them in action. However, a large degree of the "4 vs 8 to 16" are hackers pure and simple.

    Report them you say? My response is - why bother?!? I've reported players (using videos) that clearly show them walking through walls and vehicles; where they're clearly using an exploit that makes them appear as though they're ducked behind cover - yet they're clearly shooting WITHOUT moving; and more - oh so much much more - and yet months later - the same players are still at it.

    Bottom line is that Ubisoft doesn't give a rats *** about it, and takes NO (ZERO) action unless they're backed into a corner and have no choice but to. Hell - matter of fact - NONE of the tickets I opened about hacking players are even on my account any more. Goes to show just how much they "care" about fixing the problem.
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  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Merphee Go to original post
    Here's a thread for ya'. The thread title might bring you laugh. "Skill in Division pvp? Ha!"

    It is true, though. The skill in this game is pretty non-existent. I myself have even said there was a false sense of it when everyone was running the same Striker build. However, I stumbled upon a build that truly exemplifies the lack of skill in the game, or the persuasion of skill, while also positioning itself as the most skillful build in the game: The Hexotic. With it, I also found a set up that makes it the most synergized solo build in the game.

    In regards to this game, I think skill is being able to master a requirement's inconvenience, or negative, in order to use its payoff to your advantage, because often times, that payoff is greater, at least on paper. Many gear sets in the game are pretty skill-less. Their bonuses don't really come with any negatives or inconvenient requirements. Inconvenience is relative and I chose this word because PVP in this game is pretty one dimensional.

    To demonstrate what I mean by inconvenience, let's take a look at some aspects of the game that are actually relatively inconvenient:

    Nimble
    Tactical Advance
    Robust
    Bliss holster
    Burst rifles
    Sturdy
    Reckless (currently)

    • Nimble requires you to perform a cover to cover in order to gain free health. It's not instant like it once was, but this is inconvenient because Division 1 is currently less about playing from cover. However, Nimble's payoff is greater because you don't have to waste your First Aid or med kit in order to gain health.
    • Tactical Advance also requires you to perform a cover to cover, except you get a 1% damage bonus increase for each meter covered with a maximum of 30%. This is inconvenient because you have to remember to perform this manually, think about when and where to run to, and hope you don't get shot in the back. This payoff is great because there isn't many other ways in the game to get a free 30% or greater damage increase, other than Tactical Link, or what is referred to as an "I win" button.
    • Burst rifles have the highest damage per bullet in the game, however, they are inconvenient because headshot damage was nerfed, there is too much abuse of the strafing, and high RPM weapons can hold up to 70 bullets in one magazine, with good accuracy ratings and little to no recoil.
    • Robust gives you a 10% increase to Armor while in cover. This is inconvenient because you have to play from cover and while in cover, you do not have the strafing capabilities as someone who is playing out of cover.
    • Bliss holster requires you to land shots on a target with a pistol, and with each shot landed, you gain a 2% damage increase for all weapons for 20 seconds. This is inconvenient because you have to put away your main weapons and use a pistol. They themselves are pretty inconvenient and pulling out a pistol in a normal gunfight puts yourself at a disadvantage, especially in this high RPM meta. If you figured out the safest way to get the Bliss holster bonus (I have), then you my friend have taken the first steps to mastering its inconvenience.
    • Sturdy gives you a 15% armor increase when staying in the same cover for more than 4 seconds. Its inconvenience is similar to Robust.
    • And Reckless drops your toughness by 10% in order to gain an 8% damage increase. Those numbers used to be flipped.


    There are more, but these are just some of the aspects of the game that I think requires skill, or mastering inconvenience. My Hexotic build utilizes Smart Cover (damage resistance, accuracy and stability increase) and Centurion (10% RPM buff to all weapons on kill), so in combination with Tactical Advance, Bliss and Robust or Barret's, you start to see where the skill and synergy comes alive.

    With many of the gear sets, there isn't any inconvenient requirements in order to gain a bonus, with the exception of maybe Deadeye or Firecrest. They are simply equip and stuff all of your points into a main stat. Some gear sets are easy to handle in a fight, others are pretty counter-less.

    So the TL;DR question is: should gear [sets] have inconvenient requirements? I think so. I don't think gear [sets] would be complained about if there were layers of inconvenience involved that someone actually mastered. Division 2 is looking to add requirements for gear in order to have bonuses active, however from what we have of the game so far, those requirements only pertain to a stat requirement rather than a gameplay requirement.
    Originally Posted by xX_Cyanide_Xx Go to original post
    I disagree. There are some players who do have a high degree of skill, and I've personally seen some of them in action. However, a large degree of the "4 vs 8 to 16" are hackers pure and simple.

    Report them you say? My response is - why bother?!? I've reported players (using videos) that clearly show them walking through walls and vehicles; where they're clearly using an exploit that makes them appear as though they're ducked behind cover - yet they're clearly shooting WITHOUT moving; and more - oh so much much more - and yet months later - the same players are still at it.

    Bottom line is that Ubisoft doesn't give a rats *** about it, and takes NO (ZERO) action unless they're backed into a corner and have no choice but to. Hell - matter of fact - NONE of the tickets I opened about hacking players are even on my account any more. Goes to show just how much they "care" about fixing the problem.
    Let’s not trash the thread with another bout of anguish regarding exploit cheats. There will always be people like that. We need to foster players who share the same ideals. This is a great thread for that I think and there needs to be more of this in here.

    Having read this I realise my aim and timing is off and will look to improve this to improve my game. As yes I do wonder how 4 pvp players can survive 16+ as I’ve seen sometimes. Running in a mob is tricky enough to employ skill. Good job friendly fire isn’t on some of my pvp exploits I would have massacred players on behalf of the rogues lol.

    I hope TD2 has some skill based bonus features.
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  5. #5
    xX_Cyanide_Xx's Avatar Member
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    Don't get me wrong... I love the game. I truly do. I'm just highly annoyed that Ubisoft makes all these claims; doesn't back any of them up; and continues to allow the game to be trashed. I would love nothing more than to be able to group in the DZ and not have to worry about damn hackers, but I'm also not going to turn a blind eye to it. A lot of that stuff unfortunately is not so much skill as it is players exploiting bugs; game mechanics or just outright hacking.
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  6. #6
    XahRith16's Avatar Senior Member
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    GG Merphee on another well thought and quality thread.
    But if the current game was free of Hackers/Exploiting/Cheating( which won't happen in TD1,I pray for a Bullet Proof TD2) PvP ( IMO ) is Not a Level Playing Field
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  7. #7
    agentCoats's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by xX_Cyanide_Xx Go to original post
    I disagree. There are some players who do have a high degree of skill, and I've personally seen some of them in action. However, a large degree of the "4 vs 8 to 16" are hackers pure and simple.

    Report them you say? My response is - why bother?!? I've reported players (using videos) that clearly show them walking through walls and vehicles; where they're clearly using an exploit that makes them appear as though they're ducked behind cover - yet they're clearly shooting WITHOUT moving; and more - oh so much much more - and yet months later - the same players are still at it.

    Bottom line is that Ubisoft doesn't give a rats *** about it, and takes NO (ZERO) action unless they're backed into a corner and have no choice but to. Hell - matter of fact - NONE of the tickets I opened about hacking players are even on my account any more. Goes to show just how much they "care" about fixing the problem.
    Not sure how this equates to the current setup with classified. If youre using classifieds then you arent really using your skills. At least thats what this thread OP alludes to. If however you have a build that means you do have to take specific actions in order to get your abilities to trigger (during combat) then that player is using their skills compared to someone who just has to aim their heavily weighted mouse on their top of their line mouse mat to aim at a significantly large mass on screen to keep up stacks or get 10 shots off or getting an extra life or more cause of RNG.

    No one is saying ppl who use these classifieds dont have skill. What is being said is that those sets are nothing compared to having to use a hexo build where nothing comes easy.
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  8. #8
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    Originally Posted by agentCoats Go to original post
    No one is saying ppl who use these classifieds dont have skill. What is being said is that those sets are nothing compared to having to use a hexo build where nothing comes easy.
    Which is why I don't really see it much. I'm playing Skirmish and Last Stand 99% of the time I have the game open so I'm always in a position to see what other people are running. There just isn't any gear set in the game that has a "during a cover to cover" or "if you hit multiple targets with a grenade" sort of requirement.
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  9. #9
    agentCoats's Avatar Senior Member
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    Originally Posted by Merphee Go to original post
    Which is why I don't really see it much. I'm playing Skirmish and Last Stand 99% of the time I have the game open so I'm always in a position to see what other people are running. There just isn't any gear set in the game that has a "during a cover to cover" or "if you hit multiple targets with a grenade" sort of requirement.
    Where have you been.......?

    I remember Nimble being the goto holster before 6p sets came out. Everyone and their blind dog wanted a god rolled one. And we didnt have optimization then. ^^
    Ive played a hexo build in the dz for probably 60% of my time spent there (solo). Ive played it with nimble and its pretty good against a one or two players. But you can play it wo the nimble holster and just go for raw power (or any other item that needs a little work to trigger).

    I can also remember snipers (DE or maybe Sentry way back when) that utilized the Tactical Adv.) toget a one shot kill. Never managed to pull it off though against a player.


    Originally Posted by X_Trapnel Go to original post
    Skill should always be able to defeat gear. Losing a fight to a gear set is more than a little depressing.

    Hunter's Faith is the only gear set I run because it's about as close to a skilled set in the game. The inconvenience is that the set is effectively mediocre until you're at 100 per cent stacks: only then can you realistically start taking down opponents. If you fail to land headshots when you're at 100, you will be killed instantly because of the ridiculously low toughness that the build needs to work. Plus, you lose all the stacks after 10 seconds, when you reload or if you miss two shots. Not many players use Hunter's Faith for these reasons.

    The developers need to decide what they want from pvp in Division 2. This game just doesn't fit the "casual" shooter genre. I personally want to enter the Dark Zone and encounter all manner of weapons, builds and playstyles.

    The current game is 99.9 per cent House/M4 users, high crit chance/damage, grenade spamming and strafing. Forget Striker, forget Nomad, forget Predator's Mark... THIS is the real meta that has plagued the Division since 1.5 arrived and nerfed headshot damage into the ground.

    If the developers want a casual pvp experience, they need to make the game more interesting. Even the dreaded "casuals" want something more dynamic than 99.9 per cent of the player base doing the exact same sodding thing.

    I would gladly preorder the game if they promised to make it a more skillful experience and make things like headshots/accuracy/intelligence matter. I can't see it happening, though. They set a bad precedent on Division 1 when they kept nerfing and nerfing and nerfing. They didn't nerf anything in pursuit of balance; they simply nerfed something because a certain set of players whined endlessly.

    How long will Division 2 be released before youtubers start demanding changes to the things that don't fit their particular playstyle?

    Youre forgetting that 6p sets have only been in the game for maybe 25% of its lifetime. Before that we had to use the 4p ones and there was at least the illusion of some diversity in the optional part of the build (Sav gloves, Barrats CP, Skull pads etc) Looking at the miniscule amount of info given out by ubi, they seem to be returning to that sort of setup in TD2. At least on release. Not 10)% sure but it looks like you will have a wide range of config options with branded kit. 1 piece, 2piece or 3piece combos. With the 3rd piece probably giving you the strongest setup but 1 or 2 p giving you the Jack of all trades option.

    That atleast promises some nice open customization options.
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  10. #10
    Originally Posted by X_Trapnel Go to original post
    Skill should always be able to defeat gear. Losing a fight to a gear set is more than a little depressing
    This for sure is the biggest problem with with pvp since the introduction of classifieds. Yes we have a lag problem and a high rpm crit meta but before 1.8 it was player vs player, right now its gearset vs gearset and losing to a gearset and not a players ability is as you say depressing.
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