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Posted in another forum, but I suspect it applies here as well. Mods will decide, of course.
Tencent (a LARGE Chinese company who shares user data and technology from partner companies with the Chinese government) owns a large stake in Ubisoft now, including the "For Honor" title. You see, as part of doing business in China, you have to partner with a Chinese company and share all of your information with that company, which is obligated to share that info with the Chinese government. Also as per the Chinese government's requirements, all media that portrays Chinese characteristics and wants to do business in China must portray China as great and superior.
JJ is fashioned after their most favorite general in history. No lie, they have gigantic statues of this guy all over China...some as big as buildings. It's no stretch that including this guy was no simple creative idea, and that his superiority to most other classes was not just a whim, but a direction from Ubi's new masters.
The game is tanking because Ubi wants access to the Chinese market.
It's also not a stretch to believe that the perks system may have had some Tencent influence as well, since they own League of Legends. Asian games love systems like "perks" because they make you stay and grind harder and longer. They play by the rule of large numbers. It doesn't matter if 500 people leave...or 5,000, or even 50,000. Threre's a market of 100's of millions available. This would also explain Ubi's complete silence on this matter so far. It's possible that they're already salivating on the Chinese market, so losing us doesn't even count as a blip on the radar.
Of course, someone's going to reply that Tencent is only a financial invester and has no creative control. I say that an investment measured in billions gives you more control than Ubi would ever admit. I also know the Chinese system because I deal with the Chinese every day as part of my job. Along with dealing with them directly, there's considerable research involved in the Chinese system. No company that wants access to that market, that accepts billions in investment money, gets to make their own rules for their game anymore.
Face it. The game we love got sold out, and we have billions to one odds that it will ever come back. Literally.
Senior Member
Ah, what amazing business geniuses we've got here :3
Well, a few "truths" maybe ^^
Though I can't deny some possible bad implication when a product might gets treated to suit the Chinese market, overall the players there do want quality as well. In like pretty much every aspect. Because they are just like consumers everywhere else in the world. Just with a more restricted market and thus a more restricted choice of products on offer.
Furthermore, you might be overstating the size of the market for an competetive online brawler that needs a beefy PC (not a 5 years old one) or a new generation console and a good connection to be of any fun. Of course, in the big cities, that's not an issue. Good infrastructure and money aplenty. But you will hardly reach 100's of millions. Like absolutely never. At least not this age.
To add to this, this "design for China" is .. its just plain wrong in my opinion. If you are an open minded and not right wing person, opening up the game with a Chinese Faction, you got so many deep rooted warriors of a geographic region that just offers soo much through so many centuries of history, it is incredibly rich in what it has to offer. And though maybe the Asian Kung Fu touch might not be for everyone (I could do without teleport, but the mechanic feels even better then slowly shooting an arrow), it doesn't hurt the game at all.
A completely realistic fighter would be boring. One that goes behind realism into cinematic fighting with a lot of realism might be somewhat better. But what we got is cinematic fighting with not so much realism - and this way you can beat a full plated Knight with a measly Katana (I love Katana, but a normal Katana would not endure long when beating against thick metal plates!) - and that's ok.
So in the end, to me, a lot of those complains feel like: I am a superior white person, I want more superior white Warriors. I might get the wrong vibe here, but for a person that says to work with the Chinese, you feel not really connected to them. Oh and no, I am not a Chinese, nor an Asian person. Just someone who is convinced that all the variety this world has had in its (warrior)-culture is better expressed through multiple factions (or adding in stuff like romans to the knights) then just sticking to more regional archetypes.
But that's pretty much just a rant and a personal opinion that might collide with others :3 So, no offense meant with my words, just a reply to something I do see rather different ^^
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He is stronger in one way: Stamina is DEFINITELY not an issue for him, which gives him an edge in the amount of attacks he can throw. Plus, his stamina regen acts like a shadow dance, giving him Nobushi's advantage. He's got unblockables everywhere, which gives him an advantage. I'm not saying he's unbeatable, but I am saying he's an "easy button" more than any other hero.
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Ah, what amazing business geniuses we've got here :3
Well, a few "truths" maybe ^^
Though I can't deny some possible bad implication when a product might gets treated to suit the Chinese market, overall the players there do want quality as well. In like pretty much every aspect. No, they do not. They accept whatever they get. Because they are just like consumers everywhere else in the world. Again, no they are not. China is just starting to accept capitalism and consumerism, but because they are a "developing nation", they aren't careful shoppers like in the West.Just with a more restricted market and thus a more restricted choice of products on offer.
Furthermore, you might be overstating the size of the market for an competetive online brawler that needs a beefy PC (not a 5 years old one) or a new generation console and a good connection to be of any fun. See my point below about Internet Shops Of course, in the big cities, that's not an issue. Good infrastructure and money aplenty. But you will hardly reach 100's of millions. Like absolutely never. At least not this age.
To add to this, this "design for China" is .. its just plain wrong in my opinion. If you are an open minded and not right wing person This has nothing to do with politics, opening up the game with a Chinese Faction, you got so many deep rooted warriors of a geographic region that just offers soo much through so many centuries of history, it is incredibly rich in what it has to offer. And though maybe the Asian Kung Fu touch might not be for everyone (I could do without teleport, but the mechanic feels even better then slowly shooting an arrow), it doesn't hurt the game at all. The point of this article is that the design choices weren't just asthetic. They were required for entry to the Chinese market because that's the way the Chinese government works.
A completely realistic fighter would be boring. One that goes behind realism into cinematic fighting with a lot of realism might be somewhat better. But what we got is cinematic fighting with not so much realism - and this way you can beat a full plated Knight with a measly Katana (I love Katana, but a normal Katana would not endure long when beating against thick metal plates!) - and that's ok.
So in the end, to me, a lot of those complains feel like: I am a superior white person, I want more superior white Warriors. Again, you are the one throwing racism into this. Players LIKE the concept of Chinese fighters, but not if they're going to be OP and one of them bypasses a gigantic nerf to every other heroI might get the wrong vibe here, but for a person that says to work with the Chinese, you feel not really connected to them. So, though you have absolutely no experience with the subject, you want to judge me as out of touch? You haven't spoken to a single person in China, nor have you researched anything about China's laws on doing business in China, but by your Western values I'm off base? I could insult you, but I think you insulted yourself better thereOh and no, I am not a Chinese, nor an Asian person. Just someone who is convinced that all the variety this world has had in its (warrior)-culture is better expressed through multiple factions (or adding in stuff like romans to the knights) then just sticking to more regional archetypes.
But that's pretty much just a rant and a personal opinion that might collide with others :3 So, no offense meant with my words, just a reply to something I do see rather different ^^
You.......totally missed the point of everything I said. You're using Western logic here, and somehow assume that beefy desktops are on limited supply in China. They're not. A person doesn't even have to own a PC in Asia. They have Internet Shops for that where you can spend an entire day renting a beefy pc for about $2 US. These shops are always full, and are open 24/7.
You're talking about Chinese consumers being discerning? They literally play whatever they can get their hands on because the market is so restrictive.
But above all of that, my post was about how YOUR data is at risk. About how the game was changed to match up with their new Chinese partner and their demands, which is why we have OP Chinese heroes and a perk system, and why Ubi has been ignoring everyone about this issue.
As I said, I speak to Chinese of all ages every day on many topics, and with the younger Chinese, about gaming in China. As part of my job requirement, I research China. I'm an American living in a heavily Chinese influenced part of Asia. I have an understanding based on research that I presented. Now, if you want to just assume that China works the way the West does and throw in some American politics into it, then I'm sorry...I . can't help you understand.
This has nothing to do with racist junk. This has to do with how Ubi sold out to get access to the Chinese market, which required them to change the game to be more suitable to the Chinese government per Chinese law. Please, re-read my post more carefully.
Senior Member
Ah well, difficult topic but you as well too, didn't get me at all. I know pretty well the requirements that need be met for companies to enter the Chinese market, I know Tencent and quiet some gamers there. Maybe not as much to claim anything of statistical correctness, but that doesn't even matter. There are not 100 of million housholds that own beefy PC's, waiting to play Ubi Soft's For Honor. And the market is not as restrictive in a way that they hardly have anything. Besides, Asia, especially Japan and Korea, publish a healthy amount to titles in China as well.
But let me get 2 things straight.
For Honor won't be dying in the west. That's a complete exaggeration and with the 100 of millions makes your points invalid due to the nature of this whole post being written like stupid fake news stuff. The topic and the ideas itsself are very interesting, the sole reason I considered to join this discussion. But it would be way more enjoyable to break it down to a more reasonable level and into more reasonable dimensions.
Getting to point 2: For Honor already arrived in the east. Maybe not exactly in China (at least not officially i guess), but Japan and Korea for example already got it.
So now to more general stuff. Why is the game tanking? Might be something personal for you. Whats bad about perks? Whats asian about it? Whats western about it? Where did all those influences originate? The gaming industry is huge and since its beginning, it has been largely influenced by the east (Japan).
So in the end, you claim For Honor right now is "bad" because it "might" want to enter the chinese market, because "maybe" Tencent got a say in some design choices (like really?) and maybe Ubi Soft sells Tencent our data? If I recall right, if any major security issue or data scandal would emerge, Ubi Soft might face severe consequences. Its located in France (well not all studios) and thus within the European Union. So giving away "personal data", like stuff we might be caring about, actually is highly unlikely due to 2 aspects. First, what would Ubi gain from it? Second, what would Tencent need it for? They got a hella lot league players, guess even more players on mobile games etc. If there is something they might be interested in, it would be more of the technical know how. Ubisoft has some really deep knowledge in creating open world games, is incredible when it comes to animations and so on. And even if I don't like to completely deny your claims and myself always keep up a critical, healthy approach towards data security etc., I feel like not being on Facebook and Twitter already saves me from the two major worries.
And last, we are in the internet. People tell that they are so knowledgeable, what they have researched and so on. But yet I have to see the link to a single dissertation. Not claiming anyone claims anything thats wrong. But at least to me it always feels as if so many people only try to talk down, above from their superior position. ... "salivating"
And of course, I may not have started all too serious myself, but that was due to all those exaggerated numbers - can't be taken seriously.
Back to more For Honor specifics - the way the game is now, it might have a hard time in china. Executions, rolling heads, skulls, blood - this is not ok there. Making JJ resemble a great general is no changing the game. A new Lighting Enginge is no changing the game. We got a new faction - and with the Chinese, actually the most expected as well. Like - what other faction would give you such an abundand amount of documented diversity throughout the centuries?
But sadly, as already stated, you did not seem interested too much on discussing those topics themselves but were more like stating up things that you deemed as facts it felt.
"It's possible that they're already salivating on the Chinese market, so losing us doesn't even count as a blip on the radar.
Of course, someone's going to reply that Tencent is only a financial invester and has no creative control. I say that an investment measured in billions gives you more control than Ubi would ever admit. I also know the Chinese system because I deal with the Chinese every day as part of my job. Along with dealing with them directly, there's considerable research involved in the Chinese system. No company that wants access to that market, that accepts billions in investment money, gets to make their own rules for their game anymore.
Face it. The game we love got sold out, and we have billions to one odds that it will ever come back. Literally."
But I say face it: come 2019, we will still play the game. Come 2020, I am not that sure (successor maybe?), but as long as we don't have For Honor 2, For Honor will stand strong as pretty much the healthiest brawler ever. What it still is I guess (dunno about Soul Calibur numbers, but I guess for Honor is played more).
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China is not Japan or Korea. Not even in the same dimension. They may publish to China, but China has less to worry about from them as the do about US influence, which they consider a plague taking over China right now. About the only plague they worry about from the East is KPop and Korean soap operas. But you missed my point about how it isn't the computer you own. There are Internet Shops everywhere. You don't need to own a beefy computer. When you factor in that, you have 100's of millions of potential players.Ah well, difficult topic but you as well too, didn't get me at all. I know pretty well the requirements that need be met for companies to enter the Chinese market, I know Tencent and quiet some gamers there. Maybe not as much to claim anything of statistical correctness, but that doesn't even matter. There are not 100 of million housholds that own beefy PC's, waiting to play Ubi Soft's For Honor. And the market is not as restrictive in a way that they hardly have anything. Besides, Asia, especially Japan and Korea, publish a healthy amount to titles in China as well.
We're throwing insults now? Look, I gave my opinion based on personal observation, research, and what I consider a well thought out opinion. The definition of "fake news" is deliberately false information put out as fact in an effort to mislead masses of people. I think you should take some time to reflect on that. If you're an American, then definitely before any elections in 2 years.But let me get 2 things straight.
For Honor won't be dying in the west. That's a complete exaggeration and with the 100 of millions makes your points invalid due to the nature of this whole post being written like stupid fake news stuff. The topic and the ideas itsself are very interesting, the sole reason I considered to join this discussion. But it would be way more enjoyable to break it down to a more reasonable level and into more reasonable dimensions.
It's already in China, in case you haven't noticed the players with "China" or "CN" in their names, some of which have their emblems as the Chinese flag. Most of them are named random letter and number combinations. Those are farmers. I wouldn't be surprised to hear of characters for sale on Weibo.Getting to point 2: For Honor already arrived in the east. Maybe not exactly in China (at least not officially i guess), but Japan and Korea for example already got it.
Go look at the Steam charts for the game. Look at the patterns. Look at the wait times to find games now. Look at the number of posts of people who are leaving...veteran players since season 1.So now to more general stuff. Why is the game tanking? Might be something personal for you. Whats bad about perks? Whats asian about it? Whats western about it? Where did all those influences originate? The gaming industry is huge and since its beginning, it has been largely influenced by the east (Japan).
You apparently didn't read my post thoroughly. Tencent is required and willingly gives China all of its user data. Tencent makes Wechat, which is used for just about everything in China, including purchases at convenience stores, vending machines, online purchases, etc. It gives the Chinese government every bit of that data it collects from pictures to posts to location data to financial data. Imagine if facebook and your bank had a baby and that baby told everything about you to your local government. That's Wechat. Now, picture a Chinese law that says that every company that wants to do business has to share their user data and technology with a Chinese business partner in order to have access to the Chinese market. Now, imagine that partner is the aforementioned baby. Do you see the concern now? China doesn't care if the company is in France or England or the US. In order to do business in China, you have to sign the agreement.So in the end, you claim For Honor right now is "bad" because it "might" want to enter the chinese market, because "maybe" Tencent got a say in some design choices (like really?) and maybe Ubi Soft sells Tencent our data? If I recall right, if any major security issue or data scandal would emerge, Ubi Soft might face severe consequences. Its located in France (well not all studios) and thus within the European Union. So giving away "personal data", like stuff we might be caring about, actually is highly unlikely due to 2 aspects. First, what would Ubi gain from it? Second, what would Tencent need it for? They got a hella lot league players, guess even more players on mobile games etc. If there is something they might be interested in, it would be more of the technical know how. Ubisoft has some really deep knowledge in creating open world games, is incredible when it comes to animations and so on. And even if I don't like to completely deny your claims and myself always keep up a critical, healthy approach towards data security etc., I feel like not being on Facebook and Twitter already saves me from the two major worries.
So you're saying that, because no one has brought up this point yet, which has become the MOST prevalent in the past month or two, that it must not exist? So if you hear nuclear war alarms go off, are you going to hold off getting to shelter until someone writes a dissertation on it first?And last, we are in the internet. People tell that they are so knowledgeable, what they have researched and so on. But yet I have to see the link to a single dissertation. Not claiming anyone claims anything thats wrong. But at least to me it always feels as if so many people only try to talk down, above from their superior position. ... "salivating"
And of course, I may not have started all too serious myself, but that was due to all those exaggerated numbers - can't be taken seriously.
Back to more For Honor specifics - the way the game is now, it might have a hard time in china. Executions, rolling heads, skulls, blood - this is not ok there. Making JJ resemble a great general is no changing the game. A new Lighting Enginge is no changing the game. We got a new faction - and with the Chinese, actually the most expected as well. Like - what other faction would give you such an abundand amount of documented diversity throughout the centuries?
As for your thoughts on the executions and such...China doesn't care so much about that anymore, and at worst, Chinese editions will replace blood with green goo. They've done that in several other games.
And the argument is not whether the Chinese was a good faction to add. The argument was the intent behind it, which sound logic and reasoning provides a concern that the true nature of these changes that many don't like have not been revealed. That Ubi may not have been honest with us and is still not honest with us. These are questions people need to be asking...not rationalizing away whimsically.
That's gross assumption on your part, and incorrect as I've been having this discussion with you, rather than dropping the post and running.But sadly, as already stated, you did not seem interested too much on discussing those topics themselves but were more like stating up things that you deemed as facts it felt.
I've already compared Soul Calibur and For Honor for a different debate I had with someone else. Soul Calibur isn't even close to what For Honor has been. But the numbers have been declining markedly since MF appeared. Some like it, but the hardcore userbase that has sustained this game is leaving in waves. You can see a pattern of player drop. Heck, I can see the difference in the amount of people playing. It went from "Very high activity" to "high activity", and it's still taking 2-5 minutes to connect to a game. For some people, much, much longer. For Honor was running high with players before MF. It was easy and fast to get into a game. The developers were even bragging about it. Then MF and the initial surge, then the steady and slow decline. Will it pick back up? Will it keep declining? Who can say right now?"It's possible that they're already salivating on the Chinese market, so losing us doesn't even count as a blip on the radar.
Of course, someone's going to reply that Tencent is only a financial invester and has no creative control. I say that an investment measured in billions gives you more control than Ubi would ever admit. I also know the Chinese system because I deal with the Chinese every day as part of my job. Along with dealing with them directly, there's considerable research involved in the Chinese system. No company that wants access to that market, that accepts billions in investment money, gets to make their own rules for their game anymore.
Face it. The game we love got sold out, and we have billions to one odds that it will ever come back. Literally."
But I say face it: come 2019, we will still play the game. Come 2020, I am not that sure (successor maybe?), but as long as we don't have For Honor 2, For Honor will stand strong as pretty much the healthiest brawler ever. What it still is I guess (dunno about Soul Calibur numbers, but I guess for Honor is played more).
But what is clear is that there's been a Chinese business influence into the way things have gone, and Ubi has not shown a single iota of reaction to the player base that's upset with these changes, which clearly says that they have a bigger reason they can ignore the ones threatening to leave. You see, in a normal, Western business model, you do everything you can to keep a large amount of your playerbase. But when you've got a bigger pool of players, and a supergiant Chinese company promoting your game to millions of Chinese players, you don't care so much about your hardcore base. Bigger money is coming, thanks to the doorway provided by a company that's already bought a lot of shares of your company already.
So you can keep thinking like a Westerner on this, or take the time to learn about the Chinese method of taking over. That's on you. I have my questions, and I think they're well founded and deserve proper answers.
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LoL already had a large userbase worldwide when they bought it. They haven't had to change anything. But look at their system. It's nothing like what FH was, and is more in line with what FH is now. That, alone, is something to pay attention to.You say that Tencent owns League of Legends, which is true since Riot Games is part of the Tencent group. But strangely there is not a lot of chinese inspired heroes and they are not above the others.
