JJ is overpowered. | Forums

[OhThatTickles]

@Knight_Raime

I see your points but @CSaunders95 has some as well. Try not to attack him personally to make your point.

I think you have decent counters to a bunch of his statements, but don't address an important one very well. Sifu stance, as mentioned, has dodge frames, no cost, is very difficult for much of the original cast to punish, and provides a direct benefit to an all around excellent kit. Your argument that JJ remains in punishable range after entering Sifu is only true for "ranged" characters like Nobu, Valk and Shaolin, and then only for certain moves. The "tracking" you mention is rare in the original cast, and the timing to both close the gap and land the attack is iffy. At most the punish is a tracking light dash attack like orochi's, which is poor punishment for the "dangerous" move that Sifu stance is. Close-ranged characters are vulnerable to abuse by the method Saunders explained, and to dash forward and get the guard break is a non-option for many.

I would contest the timing for his top heavy vs. shin kick timing, but don't have access to the numbers. They feel very different to me, and the "minimal" punish of a 45dmg top heavy on splat is massively good in a majority of situations, not to mention 4v4 abusability.

Finally, on a personal note, as a Nobu main - I don't feel many of the Nobu arguments have value. JJ is superior to Nobu in almost every way, and the methods of countering him with Nobu that you mention are death-sentences for most Nobus short of tournament players.

[Knight_Raime]

@Knight_Raime

I see your points but @CSaunders95 has some as well. Try not to attack him personally to make your point.

I think you have decent counters to a bunch of his statements, but don't address an important one very well. Sifu stance, as mentioned, has dodge frames, no cost, is very difficult for much of the original cast to punish, and provides a direct benefit to an all around excellent kit. Your argument that JJ remains in punishable range after entering Sifu is only true for "ranged" characters like Nobu, Valk and Shaolin, and then only for certain moves. The "tracking" you mention is rare in the original cast, and the timing to both close the gap and land the attack is iffy. At most the punish is a tracking light dash attack like orochi's, which is poor punishment for the "dangerous" move that Sifu stance is. Close-ranged characters are vulnerable to abuse by the method Saunders explained, and to dash forward and get the guard break is a non-option for many.

I would contest the timing for his top heavy vs. shin kick timing, but don't have access to the numbers. They feel very different to me, and the "minimal" punish of a 45dmg top heavy on splat is massively good in a majority of situations, not to mention 4v4 abusability.

Finally, on a personal note, as a Nobu main - I don't feel many of the Nobu arguments have value. JJ is superior to Nobu in almost every way, and the methods of countering him with Nobu that you mention are death-sentences for most Nobus short of tournament players.

Okay but for real though you don't know what you're talking about. Every. single. move. in the game has tracking. As I pointed out with Nobushi's block retreat even characters like berzerker (one of the two noted heros to have overall short range) will still track her if he's continuing his combo. The exact same thing happens with sifu's stance. The dodge would avoid the first hit. not the second. Because you have 800ms mandatory recovery unless you zone out. Which means 400ms into the 800ms you start your 600ms attack.

It isn't only true for ranged heros. Ranged heros can punish him for going into it at a farther distance. Something others can't. But as I noted if i'm within close range with literally any hero my combo attack will land. The dodge itself doesn't take you out of close range. and the mandatory time to sit in it plus the recovery of leaving it (again which is 800ms) means any combo hit I throw that's faster than 800ms is going to hit you.

I hardly see how orochi's dash attack is a poor punishment. That's a guaranteed light into probably two more since his in combo lights are 400ms and people struggle dealing with basic 500ms lights.

Just because Nobu is your main doesn't mean you know everything about her or her match ups. JJ is superior in terms of direct damage since bushi has to land bleed to get her meaty damage. Her raw hidden stance into kick is her fastest option out of HS that beats most things. unless it's absurdly fast like a 500ms/400ms follow up. She can just straight up hidden stance a raw attack and get a free GB unless the person decides to throw an attack after it whiffs. Her dodge out of hidden stance into delayed side winder into her kick massively throws people off because of how weird the timing is after each of those situations.

I'd suggest you go look up a youtuber called "mr. medium" Was considered to be one of the best if not the best console nobushi. He migrated over to pc semi recently. Of course you can also go look up Alernakin as well. Considered to probably be the best active nobushi. he's a pc player. Both can show you just how good nobushi's hidden stance is.

You can "contest" the timing all you want. You're still wrong. And there is video footage out there of people testing and showcasing this. Yes the splat into 45 damage is very strong. Good luck getting someone to play near a wall. JJ has nothing in his kit that forces people to play near a surface. Also. I play JJ in 4's often. I almost never get my splat punish because randoms almost always ruin max punishes.

I only get this aggressive with people because both you and them are not informed players. You go entirely off of your own experiences. Let me get this straight for you. I don't claim to be an amazing player. Not even a good one. I don't claim that my opinions are facts. Nor do I assume such. but I DO know more about the game then most people here. And this is because I actively communicate with people who tear the game apart mechanically. I actively watch the people who post information they find from doing frame checks. I know how this game works for the most part. I can tell you the basic rule of thumb for how something works and when/if it is different in some other case.

Blatently put I have more knowledge about the game. If you want to contest my opinion JJ being bad that's fine. As that's a subjective thing. But If I tell you how something works, in this case sifu's poise, or JJ's soft feints then it's not debatable. Not unless you can provide frame by frame footage proving other wise with an explanation on why the mechanics are working different in this case.

[SixAxe505]

You are speaking on the viability of punishing a move that on paper works, but in practice is next to impossible. I am going to make 3 points.

1. JJ has great range and speed. Most times when a JJ initiated combat it's at his effective range not the opponents. Heroes like assasins and those with a shorter range are able to block, parry, and deflect but not counter attack. Considering his lights are 500ms, parrying goes out the window as a normalized counter and his 400ms switcheroo rarely gets blocked. Considering you block a move outside your striking distance, by the time you get into it, he has already sifu'd the f out of range and potentially hit you with a zone for trying to swing.

2. Nobody Sifu's the first hit anyway. Your claims are that if you throw an attack while being directly next to a JJ, which doesn't happen often if at all, and they sifu then your next hit tracks and will hit them. Let me speak from a Nuxia point of view, that is false. Most heroes do not have tracking capabilities on their follow up attacks that push them further. If dodged to the side, maybe, but dodged backwards? No. All that aside, JJ only Sifu's on block, or parry, or as a mix-up in his own combo, not arbitrarily during the fight.

3. You use JJ in 4's alot, you have a biased opinion. You would not want to believe that he is as powerful as he is for fear of him being nerfed, I mean BALANCED. The proof is in the pudding so they say. All that being said, sifu only needs to be taken away when he is OOS and his damage needs to be brought down, it his attacks (some of them) need to be slowed down. Other than that I agree with most things you post.

[Knight_Raime]

You are speaking on the viability of punishing a move that on paper works, but in practice is next to impossible. I am going to make 3 points.

1. JJ has great range and speed. Most times when a JJ initiated combat it's at his effective range not the opponents. Heroes like assasins and those with a shorter range are able to block, parry, and deflect but not counter attack. Considering his lights are 500ms, parrying goes out the window as a normalized counter and his 400ms switcheroo rarely gets blocked. Considering you block a move outside your striking distance, by the time you get into it, he has already sifu'd the f out of range and potentially hit you with a zone for trying to swing.

2. Nobody Sifu's the first hit anyway. Your claims are that if you throw an attack while being directly next to a JJ, which doesn't happen often if at all, and they sifu then your next hit tracks and will hit them. Let me speak from a Nuxia point of view, that is false. Most heroes do not have tracking capabilities on their follow up attacks that push them further. If dodged to the side, maybe, but dodged backwards? No. All that aside, JJ only Sifu's on block, or parry, or as a mix-up in his own combo, not arbitrarily during the fight.

3. You use JJ in 4's alot, you have a biased opinion. You would not want to believe that he is as powerful as he is for fear of him being nerfed, I mean BALANCED. The proof is in the pudding so they say. All that being said, sifu only needs to be taken away when he is OOS and his damage needs to be brought down, it his attacks (some of them) need to be slowed down. Other than that I agree with most things you post.

1) subjective. Depends on the map. Most of me experience with JJ has been on river fort, shard, and I forget the third map. the one where C is literally just trap doors everywhere. On all 3 maps sans the trap door map Most opponents were in my face due to the points being enclosed spaces. So people were easily able to be within close range. Now if I was playing a more open map like that viking one that has two rope bridges then sure. 500ms lights are easily parryable. So maybe at your level. But not mine. It's entirely possible for people to space others with JJ. I do it when possible. But that's not how I see the average JJ play. Which is what i'm speaking on.

2) People sifu to dodge random hits and to cancel the recoveries of their final hit. So anyway you use his stance you can hit him. Nuxia's got poor range with her lights because they're small thrusts. It still has tracking. If you tried to side dodge her top light after she hit you with a side light you're going to eat the hit. Some moves don't have good tracking for forward. Some don't have good side tracking. Very few moves have poor tracking all around. Sifu poise is used rather often in team fights because that is when he can get most of his wide sweeping hits in. So knowing this you can just watch JJ and see when he's sifued to get his stamina back and then punish him. You're correct that in a duel situation it is used much less often though.

3) Everyone's opinion is biased to an extent. I've already agreed that he needs a damage nerf. I'm not afraid of him being nerfed. I've never felt that way about any hero i've enjoyed. If JJ has to be nerfed it's got to be done smartly. I can understand at some skill levels JJ feels oppressive because of how much he does. At the same time I can't ignore that at my level of play he's far less viable. Sifu's poise might be difficult to punish for you or others. But not for me. And if I use it too often I get punished. So much so that even in 4's I only sifu's if someone else is near by. If i'm in a 1v1 I never do it even if I might be out of immediate range. Because the players I deal with are smart enough to know how to punish it. Just as I can't spam his shin kick or side dodge heavy as people know how to deal with it.

Aside from his bugs being fixed the only nerf he needs is damage wise. And a feat nerf as well. Sifu's poise is situationally useful and too easy to punish outside a team fight. His side dodge heavy is too predictable and has multiple ways of dealing with it and the soft feint. and his top heavy soft feint doesn't do it's job of being a mix up because you can dodge it and the heavy on the same timing. JJ has no counter to that. I want him buffed because of the heavies (sans maybe warlord) he's the only one with good bones in his kit. The rest are horribly designed both on paper and in practice.

[Tatsu147146]

It seems that a lot of you tend to fight JJ in HIS comfort zone and that makes him even MORE frustrating than he actually is. Not that JJ isn't a bit to much on the annoying side of things. Frankly at the moment the thing I find most frustrating with Sifu's poise is that he can enter it while OOS, although I recently GB him while in that move and OOS with Shugoki and well you can imagine what happened next.

I'm not here to tell you to GIT GUD and block or parry, though very useful they are not the only deciding factor. Most people I've encountered here seem to forget that using you're recommended range or how I prefer to call it you're surrounding field is a game changing tool that is constantly overlooked. Surrounding field is a term I use for myself when in a fight, it's basically an imaginary circle if you will, which is dictated by you're weapon or in this case you're character of choice (this still has to do with the thread please be patient with me). In real life you want to keep your opponent in a certain distance which also translates into this game. Normally I idealize this surrounding field as one foot from the tip of my weapon, I don't want my opponent's BODY any closer or farther than that. From what I can gather from a lot of the posts in this thread is that you can't hit you're second light when JJ goes into Sifu's poise and this is more than likely because you have been fighting him in HIS surrounding field, you want to fight him where he's most uncomfortable which is right in his face or beyond his surrounding field, this is where you want to be. Here's my logic behind it, from my experience fighting them they get desperate if you're to close and make a lot of mistakes, here is where short range fighters are the best, they'll try to get farther or go into Sifu's poise which, if you're in your surrounding field is quite easy to punish however way you want. As for long range and medium range fighters you want to stay away from his surrounding field and play it patiently, let THEM close the gap because their only way to do so is by using heavys which are slow enough to get some good damage or punishes into the fight (I've played this strategy the most to satisfactory results with Orochi and Shugoki, and I don't spam head butts like a jerk) play the player not the characters get on their skin don't let them have their space.

This is not to say that I find JJ to be balanced or that my way to fight him is the best let alone the only way, but since it's still been only two weeks I'll refrain momentarily from airing my complaints for now and see what moves that I find OP actually have a weakness or if they don't I'll be back to explain why they are OP and have no way to punish.

I hope this post is helpful in some way to those trying to fight this or any other character.

[Blitzwarrior771]

Then nerf Nuxia orochi and aramusha

[SnizzyWizzy]

hes sooo op its disgusting. please nerf this guy! if u looked at him next to other older champs you would wonder why anyone even picks them. ohh...wait, they don't pick them. all i see is these new op guys running around everywhere. rip rip

[Herbstlicht]

he's new.

if you see everyone running JJ and OP to you, then have some self reflection: you are not as good as everyone.
i wouldn't bother to argue he's not OP. Read everyone's comment above.

Stuff like this isn't helpful. I understand that everyone wants to keep JJ intact and fun - so do I. But lets be serious. The combination of Perks, Feats and his attacks in combination with damage numbers do make him #1 in Breach and Dominion right now. Furthermore, he has a high skill gap. People that are getting better and better with him, or like old Nobushi veterans, are wreaking havoc. And though I can only speak for console experience, I guess even on PC people will have a lot of trouble to guess his soft feinted dodge light. Because 400ms attack that can be feinted in rather late makes you guessing. His very easy acess to unblockables moves is increadible strong if he is group ganking, his hyperarmor heavys in unblockable and his zones are hell if he gets revenge and knows how to unlock.

But what do people ask for? Mainly, a damage reduction for his 400 ms light (because it feels kinda like a 50/50) and adjustment to his feats. Will that be enough? Oh I dunno. Hope so. But for someone who too enjoys playing this guy, I guess thats the bare minimum to let him stay #1 in Dominion and Breach without letting him occopy #2 and #3 as well. And yes, I am convinced that there is some real powergap between everyone else and JJ.

Like I really can't get that people consider JJ fine in Breach and Dominion .. Can understand this notion for the Monk, because this guy won't get any numbers in in a short timeframe and can be easily ganked. Though his kick might feel annyoing. Ah anyway, curious aboiut what and when Ubi will decide to do something. Just hope they don't wait another eternity - and be it for the simple fact that this guy might scare away some newer players that can't afford the new guys. Cuz would seem pretty bad - like Pay to Win.

[I-C0SMIC-I]

I preordered the MF DLC and played Tiandi and the Monk at release. I stopped to play them because i didnt liked it. Was playing other games and came back to give a try again. Im very disappointed about where For Honor is going with all those new game mechanics those new heros bring to the table while the rest of the heros are left behind on purpose...

JJ is just a very bad concept compared to the other available heros. He breaks completely all fight logic. Player are keen to abuse every cheese they can obtain. JJ´s hidden stance (regens stamina btw.) is used to get free dodges and strike back with a zone or cancel to a light "zone" since he has only zone attacks.. His unblockable move which is also feintable is way too fast.

Yesterday i played him for the first time without looking into his moveset at all and i was directly the first one on the scoreboard with 21 : 1 and 900 score andI won every 1v1 encounter easily. He is definetely OP.

Monk is also broken and not punishable in most scenarios. I wont list all the **** he is able to do, because everybody allready knows it. The major issue is in team fights, probably in duels its not that much of an issue since skill is bigger then spam, you can compensate it by it but in teamfights this aint any fun to get stomped by skilles spamming player.

I love For Honor or should i say i loved? BUT please balance this game immediately this should be frist to do in your agenda.. Cmon guys you can do it its not that hard to balance a bit.

[Tatsu147146]

I preordered the MF DLC and played Tiandi and the Monk at release. I stopped to play them because i didnt liked it. Was playing other games and came back to give a try again. Im very disappointed about where For Honor is going with all those new game mechanics those new heros bring to the table while the rest of the heros are left behind on purpose...

JJ is just a very bad concept compared to the other available heros. He breaks completely all fight logic. Player are keen to abuse every cheese they can obtain. JJ´s hidden stance (regens stamina btw.) is used to get free dodges and strike back with a zone or cancel to a light "zone" since he has only zone attacks.. His unblockable move which is also feintable is way too fast.

Yesterday i played him for the first time without looking into his moveset at all and i was directly the first one on the scoreboard with 21 : 1 and 900 score andI won every 1v1 encounter easily. He is definetely OP.

Monk is also broken and not punishable in most scenarios. I wont list all the **** he is able to do, because everybody allready knows it. The major issue is in team fights, probably in duels its not that much of an issue since skill is bigger then spam, you can compensate it by it but in teamfights this aint any fun to get stomped by skilles spamming player.

I love For Honor or should i say i loved? BUT please balance this game immediately this should be frist to do in your agenda.. Cmon guys you can do it its not that hard to balance a bit.

Okay I have no idea at what skill level your opponents were when you faced them but I haven't seen that many successful heavy finishers with JJ on any game mode. At the skill level I play breach you can't even consider going for that attack even if you're getting banked by two JJ, people have already begun to parry that move even if you're attacking him while he's not locked on to JJ, myself included. Also if you were playing breach and you were top with only 900 points it means your opponents and allies were undoubtedly weak, compared to the average thousands of points you can gather in that game mode with any character.