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No that would be highlander or kenseiOriginally Posted by CSaunders95 Go to original post
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No. All of his attacks drain massive stamina to use. And considering quite a bit of them are heavies any time they're parried he loses even more. They'ed have to rebalance his stamina usage. Which would then imbalance his attacks as they're both wide sweeping and hard hitting. So no. It wouldn't balance him. It would massively gimp him and they'ed have to basically rework his entire kit.Originally Posted by CSaunders95 Go to original post
"He's a heavy."
Class system means next to nothing and hasn't for several months. Even if there was any significant importance to it the game is attempting to be a competitive fighter. Something that would not gel with a class archetype system.
"He has hidden stance."
Nothing about his sifu's stance is like hidden stance barring the fact that it has a dodge property. There are several moves that have this. Further more it's worse than HS in every way sans stamina management and the ability to use it while OOS. Both incredibly niche. He can't dodge out of it. He has a forced time to sit in it and a recovery time after. Meaning it's very suseptible to in combo hits. and it's GB vulnerable. Not to mention it has no counter option outside of throwing his zone. Which is a slow 600ms attack.
"He has the extremely quick lights"
All of his lights sans the one he can soft feint into from his side dodge heavy are 500ms. Nearly every hero in the game has 500ms lights. It's the standard. And the 400ms light is extremely telegraphed due to how long and telegraphed his side dodge attack is.
"Has quick dodge attacks which can be cancelled into the other direction depending on what his opponent does."
His side dodge heavy is 900ms and his top is 1000ms. Those are not fast. You're speaking of his side dodge attack which can be soft feinted into a 400ms light which I already commented on.
"He has quick unblockables."
His unblockables outside of his parry into zone are 900ms. Which is standard speed for unblockables. His zone after parry is 500ms. But it's guaranteed so it's not like you can avoid it. Parry counters are guaranteed attacks. His shin kick unblockable is 400ms. But you can dodge it on reaction by dodging the same time you'd avoid the dash top heavy. It's a late dodge. And he can't do anything to counter that.
"He has area of effect damage."
Which is his gimmick. Bugged anyway though. his side heavy finishers on the left side whiff very often. And due to his aoe he struggles to fight in rooms or near cover.
"He does not have a single move, that once committed too, has to follow through with."
Factually incorrect. He can only sifu poise chain openers. Meaning a raw heavy or a light from neutral. He can't sifu cancel his chain finishers or his zone. He can cancel the recovery after using any move though.
If he is using sifu's poise often, especially to dodge attacks just follow up with the next hit in your combo. He can't do anything about it. Feinting into GB will also catch him since he can't tech GB's in the stance. His side dodge attack suffers the same fate as Tiandi's dodge heavy. meaning in combo hits and wide sweeping hits can smack him out of it. JJ has no viable offense against decent players.
His damage profile is legit the only imbalanced thing about him. And people struggle to deal with him due to his weird animations and the fact that some of his moves are bugged animation wise. Meaning he's doing damage before his weapon connects. (nobushi's zone used to have this issue as well.) Once that's fixed and people actually get used to his animations he'll be a joke outside of team fights/ganks.
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Dude, his stamina regen is incredibly fast without sifu stance. This is exactly my point, his attacks are both wide sweeping and hard hitting, yet has the fastest stamina regen in the game, there's no downside! Which means it can't possibly be balanced.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
The trade off should be he has to manage his stamina to be effective. Which removing all stamina regen out of sifu stance would do. Otherwise he has no negatives to compensate for his high damage output.
For example the shugokis demon embrace, high risk, high reward, you miss, you get punished hugely. Should be the same with JJ. If you just spam you should be forced to go into sifu stance. Forcing him to use it in his combos means he has the downside he badly needs which would open him for counter attack.
So because the class system means next to nothing currently, we should make it mean even less, correct? That's flawed completely.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Your wrong, generally the class system indicates the health to damage output speed ratio of the chosen character, and if you look at the roster, is generally correct. Heavy being the most health and the slowest damage output, Assassin being the fastest damage output but less health. With vanguard in between. Hybrids are a mixture between two of those 3 categories which in turn borrow traits from both. If you look at the feats available for all the hybrids, you will find they will be a mixture of 2 of the feats available for one of those 3 classes.
Please point out to me any characters that don't conform to this system? As I can't see any.
Right 600ms first off the bat isn't slow. A nobushis top heavy is slow.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Name me one other move other than hidden stance or sifu poise that has a dodge property attached to the backwards guard stance, exactly there isn't one.
Now, sifu poise is actually far superior to nobushis hidden stance and I'll break it down for you.
Sifu stance-
Has dodge property combined with back doge property, when exited instantly and re entered, same happens and is then out of range of next attack in opponents combo, rinse and repeat forever.
Hidden stance- Has dodge property, stays in same location, meaning light combos cancel out nobushis counter attack. As still in range.
Sifu stance - Can't counter guard break in it, however due to the back dodge property, the opponent must first dodge forward to be in range of a guard break, by which time he can of counter attacked with his zone.
Hidden stance--Can counter guardbreak, however the stamina used to enter hidden stance is still taken and you are removed from hidden stance.
Sifu stance - Can be used infinitely as takes no stamina, plus stamina regen from completely empty is sped up.
Hidden stance - Can be used a total of twice before out of stamina.
Sifu stance - Can't be guard broken during animation of entry or exit of sifu stance.
Hidden stance - Can be guard broken at any time
I think it's obvious which is the better one.
Nearly every character has quick light now your correct, however your are completely incorrect on how telegraphed it is.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
His side dodge soft faint can be cancelled literally just before his actual attack lands, meaning the reaction time to switch has to be pre guessed and on console, this is nigh on impossible.
Yes your correct, the build-up is slow, however when either attack comes you have 400ms to get the correct side. It's way to fast for what is a confirmed hit if the opponent tries to dodge/deflect it.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime;13766247
"Has quick dodge attacks which can be cancelled into the other direction depending on what his opponent does."
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Plus on console, this means you have to yank your analog stick to the opposing side in under 400ms. Combine this with assassins guard and your screwed.
His shin kick is 400ms exactly, which if hit leads to a lot of damage, the thing is, if it was this on its own, its not such a problem, however combine it with all the above problems I've addressed and is yet another 400ms you have to second guess on console. There's soo many different possibilities that he can do which are all very close to a 50/50Originally Posted by Knight_Raime;13766247
"He has quick unblockables."
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A gimmick on top of an extensive list of already powerful moves which just adds to the fire. If it was his only gimmick, yes, wouldn't be a problem, however, it's not the only thing he has and this just makes him worse.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime;13766247
"He has area of effect damage."
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Like I said, because of sifu stances back dodge property, most attacks in a combo will miss him again, unless its an undodgable attack which only a few in the roster have access too.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime;13766247
"He does not have a single move, that once committed too, has to follow through with."
[B
Also like I said, hes not in range of most guardbreaks.
If you want to see exactly what I mean,
Set up a custom game, a duel with a level 3 JJ bit and pick a character from the original roster before marching fire, and you will see what I mean.
I was trying to practice against one today as a shaman, guy went into sifu stance, guardbreak didn't reach him, guardbreaked again, bot exited and re-entered sifu stance, guardbreak missed and then he did it for a 3rd time.
The problem is if you break down, just one of his moves, it's not too bad, however, you combine them all, and he just has too much, too quick.
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He is in every way so flawed designed, you can dodge every mix up he has in a 1v1. yet you cannot attack him with out giving him the advantage. he has insane punishes, waaay too much I-frames. I hope they just nurf him to the ground both in terms of hero and in terms of feat. When they have time to give him a soild rework then we can talk again.
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"Dude, his stamina regen is incredibly fast without sifu stance."Originally Posted by CSaunders95 Go to original post
His stamina regen without sifu's is the exact same rate as everyone elses. Sans gladiator's who's got faster.
"For example the shugokis demon embrace, high risk, high reward, you miss, you get punished hugely. Should be the same with JJ. If you just spam you should be forced to go into sifu stance. Forcing him to use it in his combos means he has the downside he badly needs which would open him for counter attack."
He's already forced to manage his stamina. because going into sifu's often gets you punished. But you think Sifu's is way better than it is. So of course you don't see that.
"So because the class system means next to nothing currently, we should make it mean even less, correct? That's flawed completely.
Your wrong, generally the class system indicates the health to damage output speed ratio of the chosen character, and if you look at the roster, is generally correct. Heavy being the most health and the slowest damage output, Assassin being the fastest damage output but less health. With vanguard in between. Hybrids are a mixture between two of those 3 categories which in turn borrow traits from both. If you look at the feats available for all the hybrids, you will find they will be a mixture of 2 of the feats available for one of those 3 classes.
Please point out to me any characters that don't conform to this system? As I can't see any."
Yes it should be ditched entirely because it confuses players like you into thinking it means something. As i've already said the class system doesn't work with a competitive direction. This is why there have been lots of changes that make kits seem similar. Like heavies are not the only ones with trading capability despite that clearly being a trait one would find with a heavy. Or that nearly every kit has 500ms attacks. It wasn't always that way. Dodges being normalized. etc.
"Right 600ms first off the bat isn't slow. A nobushis top heavy is slow.
Name me one other move other than hidden stance or sifu poise that has a dodge property attached to the backwards guard stance, exactly there isn't one.
Now, sifu poise is actually far superior to nobushis hidden stance and I'll break it down for you.
Sifu stance-
Has dodge property combined with back doge property, when exited instantly and re entered, same happens and is then out of range of next attack in opponents combo, rinse and repeat forever.
Hidden stance- Has dodge property, stays in same location, meaning light combos cancel out nobushis counter attack. As still in range.
Sifu stance - Can't counter guard break in it, however due to the back dodge property, the opponent must first dodge forward to be in range of a guard break, by which time he can of counter attacked with his zone.
Hidden stance--Can counter guardbreak, however the stamina used to enter hidden stance is still taken and you are removed from hidden stance.
Sifu stance - Can be used infinitely as takes no stamina, plus stamina regen from completely empty is sped up.
Hidden stance - Can be used a total of twice before out of stamina.
Sifu stance - Can't be guard broken during animation of entry or exit of sifu stance.
Hidden stance - Can be guard broken at any time
I think it's obvious which is the better one."
No 600ms is slow. That's why we've made the push for all heros to have 500ms lights. And why 400ms lights are needed to actually have lights be a useful offense tool instead of just interupt damage. 600ms and 700ms attacks are only considered fast when it comes to heavies. But the best zones in the game and the best lights in the game are all 500ms or faster. You're tacking on the back dodge to invalidate my point when you originally were only speaking on the dodge property. Tiandi, JJ, nobushi, orochi, valk. all have a move that is specifically designed for dodging. As for your comparisons: The back dodge doesn't matter. If I was withing hugging distance or near hugging distance with all characters my second attack will still track and hit you and you can't do anything about it. And heros with more range like say nobushi or valk don't have to be that close and still accomplish the same thing.
You can't exit sifu immediately. unless you attack out of it the combined time of being inside sifu's plus the recovery after is 800-900ms. The back dodge doesn't prevent a gb from tracking. The only way that would make sense is if the dodge property of the move caused GB's to break tracking. It doesn't. If the person sees you going into sifu's it's a free GB for them. And again back dodge itself doesn't mean anything. Nobushi's block retreat takes you much farther than sifu's does. and in combo attacks still track it very well. Sifu's and hidden stance can both be GBed on start up and not be techable. Just like every other move in the game. You clearly haven't played him.
Nobushi's is superior because it's better defensively. You have 4 counter attack options out of it. You can also delay going into it which delays your I frames by soft feinting an attack into it. JJ can also do this. but it's less beneficial for him since his counter attack option is just one making it easy to counter. She can also dodge out of it. Meaning she can deal with combo attacks that way.
The only thing Sifu's has above her hidden stance is the fact that he can dodge and then go into hidden stance. Which makes him hard to punish for characters like highlander when JJ is OOS.
The stamina regen thing is nice. But when your entire move set is easily predictable all it's enabling is the ability to attack more. Which I guess works for lower levels. Nobushi's threat is her massive damage she gets after landing bleed. Which is made easy when she can use hidden stance to reliably dodge and counter with attacks. Her stamina management is poor. But this is ultimately irrelevant. When you consider the fact that she's one of the best counter attackers in the game.
"Nearly every character has quick light now your correct, however your are completely incorrect on how telegraphed it is.
His side dodge soft faint can be cancelled literally just before his actual attack lands, meaning the reaction time to switch has to be pre guessed and on console, this is nigh on impossible."
That is not how soft feint works. All soft feints are tied to the same timing of 400ms into the move. JJ can't wait till his hit is about to land and then switch it to throw you off. They got rid of variable soft feint timings for ever ago. And if they some how messed this up with JJ then the competitive community would have noted it when they did their frame checking. They found it to be the same. I play on console. I react to it just fine.
"Yes your correct, the build-up is slow, however when either attack comes you have 400ms to get the correct side. It's way to fast for what is a confirmed hit if the opponent tries to dodge/deflect it.
Plus on console, this means you have to yank your analog stick to the opposing side in under 400ms. Combine this with assassins guard and your screwed."
It always comes from the opposite side. That's incredibly predictable when the attack it's coming from is nearly a second long. And yeah if you're trying to dodge or deflect it that's your fault.
Just because something is possible to do doesn't mean you should be doing it. Reflex guard is irrelevant. It has the same block time capability as standard guard. Both have the 100ms delay after switch before they can block. The only bad thing about reflex is you can't buffer a guard input during hit stun. So sure. If someone hit you right before the soft feint you won't be able to switch in time. Welcome to 4's.
"His shin kick is 400ms exactly, which if hit leads to a lot of damage, the thing is, if it was this on its own, its not such a problem, however combine it with all the above problems I've addressed and is yet another 400ms you have to second guess on console. There's soo many different possibilities that he can do which are all very close to a 50/50"
Apparently you didn't read. You can dodge the kick on the exact timing you'd dodge his heavy. There is no need to guess when you can avoid literally anything he can do from that attack on a single timing. And stop crutching on the console excuse. Good and proper 400ms attacks of any kind are just as hard to react to on pc. That's the point. the shin kick isn't a good 400ms attack because it's completely avoided without having to guess. So no it's not even a 50/50. Shin kick confirms a lights worth of damage. Which isn't a lot. Only time this is different is if he's some how wall splatted you with it. Which lets him do his top heavy finisher of 45 damage.
"Like I said, because of sifu stances back dodge property, most attacks in a combo will miss him again, unless its an undodgable attack which only a few in the roster have access too.
Also like I said, hes not in range of most guardbreaks."
And like i've already pointed out the back dodge means nothing. If i'm already in effective range for my hero my second move is going to track. Gb's track as well. The only time the back dodge property would mean anything is if I was sitting at the edge of your effective range when you did it. Which is possible with spacing. But most players don't space well. And even if you were doing that I can just force you to use sifu's or predict that you'll use sifu's and use one of the numerous forward dash attacks in the game to catch you. Because as i've already said you have 800ms of recovery time with sifu if you don't zone out of it. So you're absolutely going to get hit.
"If you want to see exactly what I mean,
Set up a custom game, a duel with a level 3 JJ bit and pick a character from the original roster before marching fire, and you will see what I mean."
If nothing else this just proves to me that you're not an well informed player. Bots do not behave like players. And bots always buffer attacks. Meaning they're going to be slower than what you'd deal with in an actual fight.
"I was trying to practice against one today as a shaman, guy went into sifu stance, guardbreak didn't reach him, guardbreaked again, bot exited and re-entered sifu stance, guardbreak missed and then he did it for a 3rd time.
The problem is if you break down, just one of his moves, it's not too bad, however, you combine them all, and he just has too much, too quick."
Did you ever stop to consider that perhaps you're playing poorly or doing something wrong? No of course not. I already did break down his kit. Sifu's stance is situationally useful that is waaay too punishable to warrent using even semi frequently against a decent opponent. You can get away with using it more in 4's because people don't play optimally in 4's. The inherent nature of 4's makes things safer than they actually are. Both of his offensive moves are beatable on reaction. Side dodge heavy into soft feint is both reactable and stuffable. His forward dodge soft feint and anything he chooses to do before/after it is completely avoided with a single late dodge. The only thing JJ has going for him outside his actually op feats is his damage model. It doesn't help that some of his attacks are wonky due to doing damage before hitting someone. I can agree that his bugs should be fixed and that his damage profile should be brought down some. But that's it.
