Senior Member
I don't really understand why people play Tier Mode and I think Tier Mode has really turned this game into something ugly.
I watched this video yesterday... Tips for surviving Tier Mode and Ghost Mode at the same time...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZw7Xfnx6U4
Some of the tips are good for any play style... recon, plan, etc.
But I have to say it was hard for me to watch... according to this player, you need all these super powers to be successful...
- Magical HUD that shows you where everyone is, even inside buildings
- Magical Rebel spotting when there are no rebels around and they don't have any better view than you
- Magical Sync-shoting through walls and solid rock
- Magical healing drone
And you need to fly around in a helo and kill random Unidad patrols just for tier points.
And the way Tier Mode is structured... it's just the same stuff over and over and over again... "the grind" as people call it.
Why? Why do this?
It's not that challenging when you use all these magical tactics. I recently did a weekly challenge where I completed a mission by sitting well outside an outpost and just sync-shoting every enemy. I never fired a shot, and never got shot at. So I can see how it can be simple but it's just tedious, unrealistic, and really quite ugly. I can't imagine why anyone would want to play like this over and over and over again.
I think a better challenge would be to start with a new character in Ghost Mode, don't develop any skills, don't use rebel resources, and play without HUD. That would probably be more rewarding and challenging and liberating to realize that XP and resources are absolutely meaningless.
Senior Member
I agree. I really don’t like the gameplay in Tier mode. I don’t like having to upgrade the damage on weapons. I’ve been playing as I normally do then just before I end the mission, I activate Tier 1 for the points. It’s more fun, but makes a mockery of the Tier system. The Tier system turns the game into a clumsy version of itself.
Banned
I feel the thread title should have read "Why play Ghost Mode", mainly due to it's permadeath, especially since there's been many reports of AI and other bugs causing death sometimes.
Yes, Tier One mode is a serious grind to get to actual Tier Level 1, but it's debatable how many and which skills are really needed if not combining it with a mode that causes you to restart the whole game if you die. The only Rebel skill I use in my Tier Level 1 videos for the most part is Spotting, and it's only because 1, I have found the EMP drone to be unreliable for stopping convoys, 2, drone jammers, 3, to speed up the process making video files smaller and easier to upload on a slow 5mb up speed, and 4, some missions, like Media Luna Investigation, will respawn enemies in a camp at least 3 times.
Also, if you're good at maintaining stealth or knowing how to deal with being detected, it's arguable how many physical or squad skills you'd need. Again, this all comes down to not Tier One mode, but Ghost Mode's permadeath. It's bad enough the difficulty of Tier One mode is constantly exaggerated, but now it's unfairly being blamed for the restrictions of another mode.
I feel WAY too many people playing this game don't assess missions well enough. Most just assume it's a paint by numbers kill em all situation with every mission, which I feel is one of the main reasons they are being detected a lot, then complaining and exaggerating that "Enemies always know where you are". The more enemies you kill needlessly, the more risk, and greater chance of being detected. Even if you ARE detected, it can be used as a distraction if you just circle around while they're pursuing your last known position.
Recently you kind of implied the Nidia's Cash mission was too hard to do with total stealth, even on Advanced with upgrades. My first try after telling you it could probably be done in broad daylight on Extreme with no HUD or upgrades by only killing the guys in the HQ building and the one next to it proved to be true, and with near non stop movement into the objective. In the end I found not even the guy target firing his rifle outside the building next door need be killed, just the 3 in the HQ. It's one of the shortest and easiest missions in the game.
This game is going to be much tougher on these harder modes, and it only gets even tougher if you aren't observant enough. That's always player error, not bad game design. There really is no blanket way to define Tier One and Ghost Modes. Your success in each, or especially combined, is totally dependent on your experience with the game, skill level, and tactics. It has a LOT more to do with that than which skill upgrades you use.
This is not a slam, just constructive criticism. My goal is to help anyone whom truly enjoys the game to find more effective ways to play it.
Senior Member
Let me clarify... I much prefer your recent approach of Ghost Mode with no skills as a way to challenge yourself over Tier Mode. That is what made me recoil in response to the Tips for Tier 1 Mode I linked above... where it’s just taking things to silly levels. I much prefer s minimalist play style... hence this thread... wondering why people play Tier Mode and seem to enjoy it. It seems the way most people play it, it’s a superhero repetitive grind-fest with very little actual satisfaction from the journey. Now, I’m sure not all Tier Ode players are the same and some play Tier Mode with a focus on realism and immersion, but that’s the exception rather than the rule.
Also, my original challenge on Nidia’s cash mission was to do it in a way that created no suspicion of foul play.. not a trace. No deaths. You’ve done it with minimal deaths which is great, but not what I was after. I think it may be impossible to do that mission without leaving a trace. I concluded the next best approach was role-playing it to incriminate Pulpo in the aggressive act of breaking into her office compound. That seemed like the next best idea.
Banned
I take it you meant Extreme difficulty with no skills when you said "your recent approach of Ghost Mode with no skills". I recall you asking me if I was playing on Ghost Mode before, and I explained in detail why I'm not.
As far as doing Nidia's Cash with no kills, that might be possible, but no kills and no suspicion, probably unrealistic since grabbing and knocking out an enemy is really a kill instead of a knockout, and the distraction lure is only so effective. Unrealistic in a real world sense, but not in a GRW world sense (explained below).
It is kind of a flaw in game design that they imply there are non lethal takedowns when there really aren't, but I think it's also kinda futile to attempt to do what you wanted to in Nidia's Cash with zero suspicion by your definition of it, though not by the game's implementation of detection.
I really thought you meant zero suspicion by the game's actual portrayal of it, and on that you didn't specify. You also described it as "Nidia's Cash with total stealth", and the definition of total stealth in GRW is not raising suspicion. By game design no enemy is suspicious unless they actually see or hear something suspicious. Since everyone other than those 3 guys I killed were busy elsewhere, and the game is designed to "cleanup" (make disappear) corpses once you face away from them and move out of the area, none of the other enemies are even going to know.
What you're doing in imagining such a scenario is trying to play the game as if it were a full on RPG, where NPCs notice every detail about their comrades. GRW is in no way that sophisticated in AI. To a degree it's sophisticated in combat, but not socially between NPCs, largely due to that "cleanup" feature they use.
IMO it's not a game to try to play like an RPG. Sure it has gender and personal appearance selection of protagonist, skill building, and scavenging, but it has nowhere near the depth of AI memory and interaction you're looking for. At the end of the day though, it comes down to what makes it most immersive for you, so if using disguises is more immersive for you, even though the game doesn't make them have the effect of a disguise, it's all fair play.
One way I can think of that might make a no kill, no detection Nidia's Cash possible is parachuting to the top of the HQ building in pitch dark with NV and on solo Ghost Mode. Then you'd have to drop to the top of the balcony stairs, hack the PC, then move crouched to the 2nd story stair side of the building and jump over the balcony when there's no NPCs patrolling that side. Jumping over the back (hill) side of the balcony might be too risky given one NPC patrols that area in and out the HQ building. I'd try this myself but I can't parachute with no skills on this no upgrade run I'm doing. However I HAVE parachute landed even on a tiny watch tower roof with a guard in it, and was not detected while doing The Instructors mission.
Note that I've successfully landed on this roof before with zero reaction from the guards when I flew the chopper a bit differently. It was the chopper explosion near their camp that alerted them. You might even be able to do this without going GM lone wolf, especially in pitch dark, but it would depend on where your squad lands and what they do. If you try it that way hope that they land on the ground, and don't alert the guy on ground level on the backside of the HQ, or the guys circling the helipad. Then you can give a GoTo for them to head to a good cover spot near the base of the hill. If they all land on the roof by some chance, you're probably going to want to issue a Hold command until your done with the hacking, then give a GoTo to the base of the hill behind the building next to the HQ. It may even be better to first give a GoTo to the balcony edge near the balcony stairs, to make sure none of them drop straight off the back side of the HQ. Of course it goes without saying you're going to have to carefully time those moves to when there's no NPCs patrolling the balcony stair side of the HQ. Anytime squad AI are involved with an attempt this tricky though, you never know what's going to happen. They could just as easily all do the crouch in front of the enemy without being seen trick, particularly in the dark.
Banned
Senior Member
That isn't magic. It is pretty much what a tier 1 unit has with proper ISR support. I'm not going to go into too much more detail than that, but in general a tier 1 unit on target knows where everyone is relatively within a structure and definitively on the ground for a really large radius around said structure. What is magic is how fast rebel reinforcements are on you after you get the warning that they are incoming. Your ISR support should be able to tell you with enough notice for you to finish your mission and exfil.Originally Posted by VirtualRain1 Go to original post
Again not magic. If you have created a proper insurgency(hence the rebel skills missions), while you may not always have combatants in the area, you will have rebel sympathizers who will report ahead and keep folk informed. Two very real life examples of this were what the way the VC tracked US troop movements in Viet Nam, and were able to be gone or set up ambushes with really primitive tech. Second the way Pablo Escobar did this to the Columbian forces by utilizing children with cordless phones. In the modern age of small cell phones... yeah you should be able to get a minute by minute of where enemies are if there is any indigenous population around.- Magical Rebel spotting when there are no rebels around and they don't have any better view than you
Not magic. With ATPIAL and ISR support very much real life. In fact it was a major part of how DEVGRU rescued Jessica Buchanan. Now, that your Ghosts don't move as they should all the time to line up shots, that is a graphical issue I wish they would fix, but sync shotting like that is done all them time in real life.- Magical Sync-shoting through walls and solid rock
The rest is some valid points, if you play and do it like that guy says. You don't have to. I don't. I'm tier 25 in Ghost mode and I am only half way through the campaign. I only expect to have to "grind" the last 10-15 levels, and then I'm going to just do the missions I have the most fun with or find the most challenging.- Magical healing drone
And you need to fly around in a helo and kill random Unidad patrols just for tier points.
And the way Tier Mode is structured... it's just the same stuff over and over and over again... "the grind" as people call it.
Why? Why do this?
It's not that challenging when you use all these magical tactics. I recently did a weekly challenge where I completed a mission by sitting well outside an outpost and just sync-shoting every enemy. I never fired a shot, and never got shot at. So I can see how it can be simple but it's just tedious, unrealistic, and really quite ugly. I can't imagine why anyone would want to play like this over and over and over again.
I think a better challenge would be to start with a new character in Ghost Mode, don't develop any skills, don't use rebel resources, and play without HUD. That would probably be more rewarding and challenging and liberating to realize that XP and resources are absolutely meaningless.
Banned
I have to say it IS magic when one of your ghosts can shoot accurate long range shots through nearby walls, so there is at least some validity to these claims. One of my pet peeves is when you have your squad positioned with you inside a defensible building with an ammo box during wave attacks, they'll often not take positions at windows, and instead stand up and shoot through walls, floors, and ceilings in the case of choppers. The AI scripting both squad and enemy needs some work.
Senior Member
I hear that. To me however it is offset by the number of times an enemy is standing visible in broad daylight and the AI won't lock up for a sync shot. I totally agree that it needs work. I'm just saying that most of that sync shot stuff is legit possible IRL, it just suffers from bad graphics.Originally Posted by Frag_Maniac Go to original post
Banned
Yeah the AI in general including animations often goes haywire. Today I witnessed Midas just wander off after all of us got in a land vehicle to tail the guy in The Agent mission. Then once as we were about to leave, I kid you not, Weaver was walking with his body horizontal on the side of our vehicle, then upright on the roof, just to get to the other side to hop in. It was like something out of one of those horror movies where the villain has supernatural powers.Originally Posted by Bone_Frog Go to original post
One of my biggest pet peeves lately is after finally getting a nice GPU (1080), the game still exhibits micro stutter. After many observations in benching getting a consistent 60 FPS, and seeing how the camera varies quite a lot when zooming in on the ghosts after traveling to a safehouse, I'm convince it has more to do with camera shake than performance.
What I do when I'm making videos is load the safehouse I'm starting from again if the cam is shaky when it zooms in. If it zooms in smoothly, it will pretty much every time result in no micro stutter in gameplay, which I've found is definitely most noticeable while driving. It's a real hassle, but at least it's a workaround that shows fairly consistent results.
