1. #1

    A commentary on breach; turning a good mode into a great one.

    A few of my friends decided to come and give For Honor a try as our primary game, Rainbow Six, currently isn't in a great state. Keep in mind these opinions are coming from a player who came into the game at the time breach was released, and I'm certainly not a high level player or a veteran of the title. These are just the opinions of someone who thinks a good mode could be turned into a great mode with a few adjustments.

    When I play with a full stack, we find breach to be the most enjoyable mode. The inclusion of lanes makes it less likely that you find yourself in a gank situation, which I'm sure is by design, since you can punish the player in a different lane if they focus on a single lane. The one thing I've noticed is that the ballista lane is of lesser importance than both the mid lane and archer lane. My guess is this is also by design, since most players probably solo queue and coordinating a three lane composition would be difficult. I would still love to see it tested, giving importance to the ballista lane to the point that if a team is ignoring a lane, they will be punished for it. My suggestion would be to elevate the importance of the guardian. If a team kills the guardian, perhaps they get the benefits of the flag over the current flag system which is dysfunctional. Or perhaps the other team's minions lose confidence because their guardian has been killed and they receive health and damage nerfs for x amount of time. Heck, have the guardian defend the ballista for the team that wins the lane. As it stands the meta for the mode is too rigid and opening up this lane will give variety to the play.

    Next are the minions. Personally I don't find them particularly enjoyable to combat. If it were me I would have an officer command x amount of minions, and if you kill the commanding officer, his minions are either killed or nerfed to the point that they're easily dispached.

    As I mentioned previously, I find the flag mechanic to be poorly designed for such an influential feature of the mode, and would love to see it implemented in such a way that it is a win condition for being the better performing team on one of the lanes.

    I don't believe gear score belongs in the mode, or any, but I doubt that is something that will be changed. At the least I would like to see the matchmaking take gear score into consideration if the mode has the population to support it.

    Lastly, we have the commander. As it stands, I feel the fight with him is underwhelming. His AI is poor, the minions and lanes lose a lot of significance, and what we've found in our very low level of play is that the ideal way to dispatch of him is to get a couple kills on the enemy team and then to gank him with attacks that stun. If you push him far enough away from his zone, the AI really begins to show how limited it is as you watch him path find his way back. I would love to see a lane win condition by some type of buff or nerf to him dependent on the team that wins out that team fight.

    I am curious to see the opinion of the veteran community on what could transcend the mode into something greater. I'm aware that my suggestions will hurt the experience of the solo queue player, but if Ubi checked the metrics, my guess would be even in its current state the full stack wins the majority of the time.
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  2. #2
    This is the kind of feedback-post I like: very reasonable, share opinions, not pretending to be better than the devs. You earned my full respect, Temdee
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  3. #3
    Hmm, good post.
    1. No comment on map layout.
    2. Minions: i like this. Pikemen are irritating. They walk a long way to chase u down. Their stab stagger. Too many minions in the minions lane. Minions reinforce contested zones by too few numbers but too regular interval. Maybe throw a bunch of backup minions at a time while lengthen the reinforcement cooldown.
    3. Flag: can the the annoying fella please tell us the flag is available sometimes? I dont want to hear his panick scream all the time. I know the ram is the priority.
    4. Do gear scores affect anything?
    5. Commander: true with AI capability. Still, with endless respawn for defenders, couple with the commander sweeping attack doesnt affect the defender team, they can turtle forever. Plus, maybe its my imagination, but it seem the horizontal sweep provides a safety blanket for the defender to throw their attacks unhindered. Breach advantages lean toward the defender a bit. And minions pour in like water.
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  4. #4
    I think the guardian goes ignored primarily because people are not aware of where he's at or the benefits you get for killing him Not to mention only the people near him when he dies gets his buffs. There isn't an indication when he spawns either. as it's not always as soon as the second phase starts. So I think using UI to help people be aware of the guardian would be a good place to start. And maybe give a guardian exclusive buff to him rather than simply all 3 standard buffs. Or extend the buff to everyone on the team regardless of distance. heck maybe let killing the guardian give lives back to the attackers and let the guardian respawn once to be on the defenders side to aid in defeinding the commander if the defenders kill the guardian.

    I think the minions are fine as is tbh. they're priorities mean they don't overwhelm players who get near them immediately. And you need a player a long with the friendly minions to not only make the ram move faster but also attack the door faster. these things are just not communicated to players. So the ram is often void of players on both sides.

    I like the flag mechanic. It forces the defenders to leave their walls. And it forces the attackers to roam around. But I think it like the guardian needs UI help. Possibly letting people know when the flag has spawned. And notify either team when a friend or an ally has picked up the flag. That way people know to be looking out for it. If we were to give an incentive to either side for performance I think only attackers should get something. And I think that it can happen two ways.

    Either fast completions of destroying the walls means they get more lives on the final objective. (currently it's just a static 4.) Or we have it based on areas claimed by the attackers. I.E archer points. Archers are incredibly important for breach. But beyond getting some extra rewnown for taking the point it doesn't seem like enough for other players to care. So maybe if the attackers manage to capture all the points in the first area the ram gets a bit more health back (and thus we can remove the automatic health it gets back for just moving to the next phase) And capturing all the points in the second area and the single point in the final area shorten respawn times for the attackers.

    Seeing as how these things would be significant benefits for the attackers this would encourage the defenders to do more than just roam and gank.

    As far as the commander goes I think considering he's effected by both positive and negative feats that rather than trying to buff him the win condition is changed for attackers. If you manage to execute the commander you win instantly (animation has to finish.) Or if you kill the commander and he's not revived within x period of time by the defenders the attackers also win. If the devs were up to it they could even put him in a special bleed out state. Where he's kneeling down. That's how you'd revive him. And an enemy can just run up and hit the button to execute. The revive would obviously be slower than a standard revive. (unsure if a revive feat should effect my idea.)

    I like this suggestion because minions are present during this. and minions interrupt both executions AND revives. meaning people actually have to clear the area to win. Not just throw bodies at the objective till his health drops down to zero. In general I just think it would feel better overall.

    TLDR:
    ~New guardian UI indicators stating when the guardian has spawned and where. Defenders who kill guardian get that ally to help defend the commander in the final phase. Attackers get the buffs extended to everyone instead of only those near by.

    ~New UI indicators alerting players that being near the ram with pikeman make the ram faster/attack faster.

    ~Flag gets a new UI indicator for alerting players when it has spawned and when a friendly/enemy player has picked it up.

    ~New additions based on performance. Attackers who manage to break the gates in x amount of time get x amount of lives back. Attackers capturing all the archer points in the first area give the ram x amount of health back (no more health back on completion of phase.) Capturing all the archer points in the second and final area perma reduce the respawn time for attackers.

    ~Commander now enters a special bleed out state when health hits zero. Attackers must execute him in this state (done by landing a heavy just like any other execute) to secure the win instantly. Or the commander bleeds out aft er x amount of time which also lets the attackers win. Defenders can revive him from the bleed state (putting him at half health.) The revive is longer than the standard revive time on normal players.
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  5. #5
    The ballista is underrated. If you get uncontested on it for long enough you can use it to abuse the ram. Since it does damage to the ram, ticking damage off of it every two or shots, you can chunk it pretty hard if left alone. Going to be left alone? Probably not. But if you dont shoot an enemy they might not even notice you. This is a good way to get damage on the first gate since it usually has a safer ballista to fire from.
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  6. #6

    The guardian must go!

    In its current form it's little more than a side quest with no real advantage. I am often pissed if I catch my team attempting the guardian because it's an easy way to burn tickets. I agree with your changes on him however, but I would be fine with a change overall.
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  7. #7
    I don't know about the guardian (if it helps apparently he respawns 3.5 to 5.5 minutes after he is killed if that helps) ui but I strongly believe they should be no further indication as to when the flag is active. As it stands it is easy to find out when the flag spawns (it's not like it is random, three minutes after the start of a phase, four minutes after being placed if in the same phase) and it rewards players and teams that form their strategy around keeping track of that.

    Gear score should be fine as well, the score itself does nothing and the perks are such that they complement the game as opposed to giving a strong stamina or revenge based edge, which I agree never belonged in a game supposed to be around skill, as they did before marching fire, it is a much more even game now.

    In terms of the minions I feel for the renown they unlock by farming them and the purpose they serve they need to be as strong as they are and the devs said last Den they are looking at spawn rate.

    Sorry to sound critical, yours is a very well thought out and written bit if feedback, however much or little I agree with. I do agree that the bot ai needs to improve a good deal though that will be hard to balance around having to deal with the other players also.

    An example in the flag times

    All matchmade games start with 30 minutes on the clock.

    First flag at 27, every game
    Flag placed 26.30 (smooth run)
    Spawns 22.30
    Placed 21.20
    Gates fall 20
    Flag spawn 17
    Placed 15.37 (fight over the flag so took a while)
    Spawn 11.37
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  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Temdee. Go to original post
    A few of my friends decided to come and give For Honor a try as our primary game, Rainbow Six, currently isn't in a great state. Keep in mind these opinions are coming from a player who came into the game at the time breach was released, and I'm certainly not a high level player or a veteran of the title. These are just the opinions of someone who thinks a good mode could be turned into a great mode with a few adjustments.

    When I play with a full stack, we find breach to be the most enjoyable mode. The inclusion of lanes makes it less likely that you find yourself in a gank situation, which I'm sure is by design, since you can punish the player in a different lane if they focus on a single lane. The one thing I've noticed is that the ballista lane is of lesser importance than both the mid lane and archer lane. My guess is this is also by design, since most players probably solo queue and coordinating a three lane composition would be difficult. I would still love to see it tested, giving importance to the ballista lane to the point that if a team is ignoring a lane, they will be punished for it. My suggestion would be to elevate the importance of the guardian. If a team kills the guardian, perhaps they get the benefits of the flag over the current flag system which is dysfunctional. Or perhaps the other team's minions lose confidence because their guardian has been killed and they receive health and damage nerfs for x amount of time. Heck, have the guardian defend the ballista for the team that wins the lane. As it stands the meta for the mode is too rigid and opening up this lane will give variety to the play.

    Next are the minions. Personally I don't find them particularly enjoyable to combat. If it were me I would have an officer command x amount of minions, and if you kill the commanding officer, his minions are either killed or nerfed to the point that they're easily dispached.

    As I mentioned previously, I find the flag mechanic to be poorly designed for such an influential feature of the mode, and would love to see it implemented in such a way that it is a win condition for being the better performing team on one of the lanes.

    I don't believe gear score belongs in the mode, or any, but I doubt that is something that will be changed. At the least I would like to see the matchmaking take gear score into consideration if the mode has the population to support it.

    Lastly, we have the commander. As it stands, I feel the fight with him is underwhelming. His AI is poor, the minions and lanes lose a lot of significance, and what we've found in our very low level of play is that the ideal way to dispatch of him is to get a couple kills on the enemy team and then to gank him with attacks that stun. If you push him far enough away from his zone, the AI really begins to show how limited it is as you watch him path find his way back. I would love to see a lane win condition by some type of buff or nerf to him dependent on the team that wins out that team fight.

    I am curious to see the opinion of the veteran community on what could transcend the mode into something greater. I'm aware that my suggestions will hurt the experience of the solo queue player, but if Ubi checked the metrics, my guess would be even in its current state the full stack wins the majority of the time.
    First Ballista Lane. yeah its less important early, but properly managing the ballista lane in phase three as a defender I saw a Win where we wiped 33 lives from the opponents during the last phase because we managed that thing right. It has it's place for sure. I kinda do feel like the guardian boost a bit low right now, but it kinda works out since the other team can come in and literally last hit steal the kill. If guardian was buffed I'd want to see guardian kill based somehow on both last hit and percentage (so say for example if opposing team stole last hit but did less than 25% total health dmd the guardian buff would just be denied the opposing team rather than be given to the kill stealer)

    I LOVE the minions. baiting other players into them is all part of the game, and letting yourself get baited into the stabby-stab mob is all on you. Also the minions deny executions for smart attackers. if they didn't stagger or could lose their stagger it would dis-balance the mode severely in my opinion.

    Flag mechanic is Poorly Designed I totally agree with you here... POORLY FREAKING DESIGNED. I mean if a team with VC is more aware of the flag than the other team (or someone just doesn't even know the flag is a thing) it breaks the game so one side-edly. Seriously Flag mechanic is awful broken. If it maybe had a smaller shield effect but a proportionally quicker respawn allowing more turn arounds with it it would be better, but really as it currently stands whoever knows to snag the flag right away usually comes out way on top.

    Gear score is literally just perks now. TBH the small perks I feel like very much belong as they allow you to team comp build a little bit more. You take away peoples customization and steel burn even further and youwill have a downright riot. Gear score adds vitality and life to a game that would otherwise be stagnant. I do like the new perk system in many ways tho (still feel we were undercompensated for the change)

    Commander AI really isnt that bad. If you have a team member (kensei, Warden, or conqueror) defending him right with immobilizing shoves you can abuse your bash unblockables to let the commander get off some real dmg. But yeah his pathing on return trips is awful if hes lured out. he needs to have a sprint or some such to get back sometimes.
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  9. #9
    UbiInsulin's Avatar Community Manager
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    Quality post, OP. I'll be following along with the discussion here.
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  10. #10
    I find the mode very boring. I play this to fight other players not be half health cause multiple minions are up your butt everywhere. The perks are lame too. I hate being forced to only be able to use the assist perks with Valk. Why can't I have some kind of offense perk or defensive perk? Give me a mix in some way. Extremely boring being able to res someone to 75% and run slightly faster... None of the perks are great but I'd take the endurance one at least. Been playing for over a year and I get that the gear scores were screwing up balance etc, but half the hero's get endurance or Stam boosts in some way, valk gets nothing and goes oos easily with her mixup. Give hero's that are stuck with the assist perks like Stam Regen boosts or something. Very disappointing overall, for me anyway. I want the game balanced but I also want to have fun.
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