Junior Member
I don't know, I think the main issue here is the characters that haven't been reworked - they feel overly under-powered compered to more new and reworked characters. I think it's other characters that need buffs more, not new ones nerfs.
For example, Nobushi in many ways is just inferior to all the reworked or new characters - her light attacks are easily parried, her kick is easily dodged, her faint and "openers" are easy to read, her hidden stance is slow and drains stamina... and so on. In comparison, Jiang Jun, just does most of this better - he is in many ways more versatile and can dodge much better, with more hp, dodge which REGENS stamina instead of drain... minus the bleed on enemy.
Playing nobushi now is like playing with handicap... it doesn't mean you can't win, its just harder. Same goes for most characters that haven't been reworked.
Shaolin is awkward in overall - he is sort of lame(!) assassin, who focuses on counters and punishing enemy for reckless attacks, while still having assassin hp. He highly relies on enemies to start attack preemptively, so he could TRY(!) to slip his top light or other attack to get his Qi stance ready, to TRY(!) for counter-attack or provoke mistake out of enemy. Without access to that Qi stance, he is crippled version of Orichi or any other assassin.
TL;DR
Anyway, I think its that old characters need more buffs and improvements to their kits instead...
Member
They're multiple characters for a reason all unique in their own way, in FG, there will always be a meta, it will NEVER be "balanced" so to speak. Because people have flaws, and their characters might not be as strong as others, but since it's a fg, your SKILL can outweigh someone else's, just as their character can out match yours. It's a FIGHTING GAME. You do need to get good since it's hard for you to understand that. And I'm "low brain" lmao English?Originally Posted by The.All.Father Go to original post
Member
THANK YOU! Plus his stamina is garbage (which is odd for a warrior monk training all day on top of a mountain and with no heavy armor to weigh him down).Originally Posted by ArmoredChocobo Go to original post
I personally really like the Shaolin and I am trying work him into my 'mains' roster but it's not incredibly easy to use the guy.
I don't understand the hate on JJ either, I don't have a hard time blocking anything he throws out. In fact, I don't have a problem taking down ANY of the Wu Lin. It's still the usual-suspect light spammers (and Shinobi for some reason) that I have trouble with.
Senior Member
While I agree with you that Shaolin is mostly fine some of this post is misleading. So i'm going to quote some parts and add my response to them.Originally Posted by ArmoredChocobo Go to original post
"Everything hinges on his Qi stance, and he can’t enter it neutral. Best he can do to enter Qi quickly is whiff a light."
This is true. However Shaolin like valk has really good reach with lights from neutral. Meaning he's constantly threatening with a 400ms top or 24 damage sides. Top backwards light into qi stance is incredibly safe. So while he can only enter qi with his attacks from neutral (aside from a bug) that's not really a downside.
"If you can block or parry an Aramusha, you can deal with Shaolin. Both of them have similar infinites and both get sent flying from a simple block."
Not actually. Aramusha's gotten easier to defend against since he now has a forced 200ms delay between every combo attack. Where as shaolin can still delay his attacks to make his 400ms in combo hits impossible to react to.
"His kick and sweep requires Qi. Kick is easily dodged or poked. He can only sweep off a kick."
Kick is unreactable. it's a 500ms bash that's practically a neutral attack. If you're dodging it or poking him out of it you either got lucky or read your opponent right. Qi only takes 200ms to get into. And he can feint out of it and block 300ms after feinting. and at 500ms after the feint he can dodge and parry. So punishing entering qi stance is basically next to impossible.
"His Qi heavies can both be parried. Qi side has no iframes, or at least very few."
Qi side heavies have no I frames. And while you can parry his heavies from qi he can feint back into qi from his top heavy if he entered qi with his light. And side heavies have far reach, the undodgable property, and can also be feinted. So his two strongest options out of qi (top heavy and side heavies) can't be reacted to punish wise. You have to read how he's going to use his qi.
"Dodge attack is almost as slow as Kensei’s and has nowhere near as many iframes."
This is true. But that's not the issue. it's that he has a dodge attack. Which are basically mandatory for dealing with bash mix ups. While most heros have some dodge based attack not everyone does. Meaning if you don't have one you're missing a pretty fundimental aspect of how fights play out these days. Which is why his side heavies are brought up at all.
"His triple-poke is side-only."
True. But it's 24 damage. Which is insane damage for something that can be used reliably to interrupt mix ups and off of heavy parries. Shaolin isn't the only one here with strong heavy parry/interrupt damage. But it's still a strength he has. So it's worth noting. He can also get this off of his running kick and sweep just fyi.
"After training mode with Shaolin that notion is laughable."
Training mode is not an accurate representation of actual fights for several reasons. Most notable is bots always buffer attacks. Meaning they're attacks are always slower.
Again. Not saying Shaolin is busted. I think he's nearly perfect balance wise. But he's easily high A tier. The only things that actively keep him from S tier is his max punishes are not strong. And he doesn't have an easily abusable move like most S tier heros do. Shaolin also has unfavorable match ups. Where as someone like berzerker is holding the best spot for duelist for the simple fact that how she is currently means none of her match ups are unfavorable or bad.
Junior Member
Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Actually, his dodge is easy to guard break, because of the wind up, so if you lure him into it, you got guaranteed guard break, unlike other assassins like orichi or that vanguard kensei (tho, those are essentially very easy to parry anyway with little practice - better players will try to lure those out).
That 24 damage IF he does combo(which can be risky to attempt randomly, and mind that its not 400ms, cuz its side) is laughable once you realize that his side heavy does 25 damage...not sure about top, maybe its 30. Meaning, you don't have actual guaranteed heavy damage punisher, like with other characters.
You can easily predict when he enters Qi stance, and just pre-emptively strike fast light, or start waiting for the kick before its even there. Basically, with some characters, all you just need is to spam light fast attacks and his Qi stance is wrecked.. that's why he got that range, so he could try to punish you for that spam. Yet, for example, lawbringer can just wreck shaolin with just little effort to block and just shove you into oblivion while taking those few hits that slip past.
Member
Go and play on console and say shaolin is not op side heavys QI stance a almost guarantee kick. His lights are practically instant what is a joke, He’s got infinite combo light up so anything can come at you and it’s impossible to read him. Don’t even get me started with his feats which he can teleport to the enemies or his 4th to help his teammate out that’s a F***ING joke!
Senior Member
You know I get that Ubi cops out, but asking about specifics isn't really a cop out. Honestly we need specifics to justify things. Like with almost all characters they take getting used to and in the hands of the right player they can be very strong. TBH I was surprised how balanced the new characters are.
Nuxia if anything is a little weak, but even then in the hands of any player that knew how to play berserker right with feints the Nuxia is a monster in the exact same fashion.
Jiang Jun has excellent moves and his stamina gain is a little nuts, BUT after playing as him to rep one and against him a lot (as musha or Shinobi) he absolutely has weak points. incredibly slow start up frames on the super armor with his opener heavies. every attack is VERY easy to parry because of the sweep animations, and thus like most he relies on hard feints when a good player is playing him to mess people up. He feels very balanced to me.
Shaolin.. Hmmm now heres the weirdest. at first when you dont know what hes capable of hes scary. but Ima be honest. of the new characters the ones Im least afraid of fighting are the shaolin and nuxia. Once you learn how his stance works you can kinda predict what his options are outta qi stance. and although he as a wide variety honestly it can be solved in most cases with a shove canceled into a grab or by simply rolling away and letting him sit there in Qi stance immobile. On paper yeah hes very versatile, but it is tricky to employ any of the moves appropriately especially the Qi superior block light... which is awesome but in the moment hard to time and direct the correct way. Shaolin might need a very mild nerf if anything, but if so very mild, and I would much prefer him be untouched and let the devs get to finally reworking lawbringer (and maybe someday making my dreams come true and giving the aramusha a less predicatable opener)
As a fighter I don't mind the Shaolin HOWEVER I do think his massive teleport accross the battlefield feat is a little BS and doesn't belong in the game.
Tiandi... You know what. they're dodge feint game is really cool... but its time consuming and and easy to see or roll away from leaving them stamina bereft. The best tiandi players I've fought have made less use of the dodge are more use of the double light attack from top to right that comes out very quick to take me down. As compared to the other vanguards... well they are definately weaker than a good warden and even a noob kensei (because of how easy it is to do his side heavy dodge + feint overhead or whatever) and raider tho not phenomal is still very strong in 4 v4.
the only two i could fathom needing a nerf are jiang jun and shaolin sure... but even then I really dont think they need it.
Member
I am not going to repost the things said here, but his range, damage, mix-up potential and mobility make him super good. The only reason I don't use him is the market is oversaturated right now. I am a shinobi main, so I am sure it's a easy transition with a lot more going for it, but I just can't. I hate mirror matches you see, so that's why I chose Nuxia instead. I am going to laugh my butt off when all of these people complaining immediately get Shaolin and JJ in a couple days. It's going to be like day 1 all over again.
Member
Member
Shaolin doesn't need nerfed, it need buffed. OP has obviously not played Shaolin, I have been since it released and it has a super long recovery time, once it has been attacked it cannot block, it can just keep getting attack spammed. It can't even dodge after being attacked.
Shaolin's attacks, even their light attacks are very easy to parry or even deflect.
It's recovery time needs to be reduces so it can defend itself, and it's attacks need to be sped up so he's not so easily parried
