Junior Member
Since the recent reworks for half of the For Honor roster, a few characters have been lacking behind, and some have been asked for more than others. Such as Warlord, or Shugoki, who both can use a really good rework themselves. I've also noticed a lot of players saying Lawbringer needs a rework. Honestly, if it wasn't for ridiculously fast shoves that spark his combos, he'd be at the bottom of the list with Warlord and Shugoki.
However, one character I've noticed who is lacking and shouldn't be lacking much at all, is the Nobushi. I have noticed that her lights are beginning to seem quite slow and easily parriable, even on console (which is what I play on). It really speaks volumes when Warlord, a character everyone says needs a rework, can parry Nobushi's lights off a kick or parry like it never really affected them. Over the past several days, I've had this occur in every match I've played in, even when I toss in mix ups. I can maybe get one strike in before she's immediately parried, and her kick is even easily dodgable. I'm beginning to consider on dropper her from the list of characters I actually play as, and its unfortunate because she's my highest rep character.
Junior Member
Problem 1: Nobushi's "viper's retreat" is not viable
The main idea behind "viper's retreat" is that it is an attack that also creates distance between you and your opponent. It is supposed to be used defensively. The main ways to use it currently are as follows:
1) You can use it randomly and hope that it hits. In this case your opponent may be waiting for a parry, playing defensively, about to attack or is currently attacking. The only way that this will hit is if your opponent chose to attack right after you triggered this move. This is not a viable option because most of the time they will be waiting for a parry, deflect, or just blocking. All of these situations nullify the defensive characteristics of this move.
2) React to the opponent attacking. This tactic is really bad. most characters have attacks that are faster than "viper's retreat" so they will interrupt it, ie. bashes, lights, dodge attacks. Even attacks that are slower might still interrupt you because you are reacting to their attack. In the case that you reacted to their heavy, "viper's retreat" is so slow that they can feint their heavy and parry it for a free heavy. Since it is a light attack, it is more risky to use.
3) Use it after a heavy parry. "viper's retreat" is her most damaging option after a heavy parry. The idea that you must use this attack to get back on offense is a horrible plan. This attack focuses on separating you and the opponent. This allows for the opponent to just back dodge for more distance and wait for their stamina to recover. If they do not back dodge, they are still far way and it leaves you with only a few options. You can chose to dodge->light or dodge->heavy. Both options are easily parry-able and block-able. In both cases they might not even hit due to the distance created by "viper's retreat."
4) Sometimes accidentally use the attack by walking back pressing light attack. Again just asking for a parry.
Solution 1: Change the attack so that it is a counter-attack move
1) Activate the attack with a back dodge. Input: back-dodge->light attack. Also remove the move backward->light attack. The point here is that it makes reacting to their attacks much easier. It allows you to become invulnerable for a short time before activating the attack. You will be able to avoid the attacks you want to avoid, if those attacks are quick. The move backward light attack should just be a regular light attack. This also is consistent with other characters as well. It would be similar to Shaman's back dodge->heavy or Orochi's back dodge->light. This change also makes her a very consistent character. She will have a dodge->light in any direction. This also make the move accessible from hidden stance.
2) You can chose any direction on the back dodge-> light. We already have the animations for them, we might as well use them here. This will also be consistent with Shaman's back dodge->heavy and Orochi's back dodge->heavy.
3) Make all of her dodge-lights 400 ms. All of her dodge lights are too predictable and easily parry-able. this will also make it able to hit when you react to other characters moves. On their whiff, you will actually hit them in time for them not to block. On a light, you might trade. On a heavy you might hit them, get blocked if it was a feint, or maybe even parried. If you react to their attack accordingly, then it will be a very viable move. This change will certainly not make her overpowered. I expect these changes will make her consistent with other characters.
Problem 2: Swift Recoil is dangerous to use
1) To put it simply, it just doesn't work. Most of the time you use it to get out of your opponent's mix up, particularly during their basic attacks and when you block them. If you block a heavy or any attack that does not interrupt on block, and you use swift recoil, they can still attack you for a guaranteed hit that also staggers you. Now I am fine with having this be a move where you can only use it in particular attacks like light attacks. My problem arises with how much you can be punished with just attempting this move.
Solution 2:
1) Add hyper armor. This will make the move consistent with Shinobi's back-hand-spring move. And here, you can be punished but it still allows you to retreat and counter attack.
Problem 3: Hidden stance does not provide enough pressure
1) The main use of hidden stance is to provide a means of avoiding a mix up then use a counter-attack. However, it is completely vulnerable to dodges. The opponent can dodge all day when they see hidden stance. If you light attack, they dodge it. If you kick, they dodge it. Heavies are tricky here. If they dodge correctly they can do both here: dodge the heavy and wait for the kick. If you feint and gb, they have enough recovery time to cgb. Only sometimes does the heavy connect when they dodge.
2) It is also vulnerable to the opponent continuously attacking. When the opponent attacks, and you use hidden stance, there is not enough time to counter attack. If you get lucky, the opponent just throws a slow attack and you can beat them with the light attack... maybe. Other times they throw any attack and at best you trade. In this case you can never use the heavies.
Solution 3:
1) Make the 2nd heavies a tad bit slower and add hyper armor. This solves 3 things. i) balances the attack for this particular buff. ii) allows you to make a trade and successfully counter attack if they are continuously attacking. iii) Creates a bigger difference between the light attack and heavy attack parry timing. Sometimes I think a nobushi is going to throw a light attack so I try to parry it. It turns out it was a heavy and so I still parried it because the parry timings are so similar. Take some damage off of the first heavy and give it to eh second heavy. This will be nerf to gb damge and oos punish damage, while making the 2nd heavy more viable.
2) Make her dodge heavy undodge-able. Her dodge heavy is slow and does not do very much damage anyway, we might as well buff it. This move is accessible from hidden stance and allows you to catch the opponent dodging if they think you will kick or light attack. This makes the situation a bit like a less powerful version of shoalin's stance. If its too strong we could take some damage off of it.
Problem 4: light attacks
1) why are some of her light attacks slower? do they do more damage? just why?
Solution 4:
Make all of her regular light attacks 500 ms and do the same damage. Even if the slower lights did more damage it makes those light attack unusable.
Overall these changes will make her a viable and fair character.
Member
I'd actually really like this. I've been wanting to play her for so long, but I can never seem to make her work after they "adjusted" her values.
1 more thing I'd like to add is removing the halt on stamina gain when using Hidden Stance. Whenever I use Hidden Stance, which is a huge thing for her kit in feinting heavies and dodging a myriad of moves, it takes a ton of stamina to use and even halts the stamina gain for a few seconds after leaving Hidden Stance, so I can only do like heavy > hidden stance feint > heavy > kick when they block > poison light and then I'm drained after putting in a single light with that whole mixup
Junior Member
I'm playing a lot with Nobushi to get her best equipments (max 180). So i can say if i play 10 matches, always the unique Nobushi will be mine. Nobody plays with that champion! I know why...
Nobushi is a piece of **** lmao
She doesn't have a side dodge as Valkyrie or Kensei;
Her attacks are straight;
She has little hp;
She doesn't have a unbreakable attack to do massive damage;
Her attacks are very slow compared with Valkyrie and many other champions;
Her attacks do much less damage than majority of other champions;
Anyway, Nobushi needs a rework. Nobody plays with her
Member
i love nobushi but hidden stance will stop stam regen for 5 sec and with the MF stamina is a real problem for me to use i always end up messing it up and being punish just to try using her kit.
she very linear, the dash attacks are very stationary, she ok in 4v4 because of her bleed and kick.but otherwise predictable with low HP.
i think bleed is a bad mechanic and so is hyper armor.
but im pretty sure they will not change her sadly.
Senior Member
Although I really Really Really like the sound of a lot of the above rework, and I get the reasoning, I actually believe even currently shes quite strong. A lot of what the JJ gets hate for now she can already do, if you have a very skilled player behind the controller, her skill ceiling s just incredibly high compared to other heroes.
I know this sounds wierd, and trust me I suck with Nobushi, and find nobushi BOTs to be some of the easiest to handle even at lvl 3, but... Some ofthe best players I know main Nobushi. and when you go against someone who really plays Nobushi heavily (like on of my friends) it's incredible what they can do with her kit.
This all being said most old school characters need a rework/buff or a just a few additions to their kits to keep up with the Wu Lin, but I really think there are others that need to be visited first still.
Shugoki has been Sad faced for ages.
Warden needs something changed with his shoulderbash still
Aramusha tho scary if you don't understand him is really underpowered with his lack of openers, and half of his kit locked behind a temp full block stance that people know how to bait for a free GB
The orochi rework was fun at first but really isnt all that viable.
Law-daddy is still viable sure, but again has a somewhat boring and reactable kit.
Raider although viable has a more boring/gank-centric kit than the nobushi for sure.
Again I love the changes UghDeath suggests, and a very much feel the need for a change to vipers retreat, but I would be happier seeing any of the above reworks first. In fact If I was to prioritize them it would be in the exact order I just laid out above. If anyone wonders I main Aramusha, so you can see where I put my guy on this list.
