State of Balance S6 - Frustration Level 9000 | Forums

[CptMatsumaru]

Nobody want to play vs a turtle player. = leave. free win for Conq. but ok. dont count it.

ya, reduce shieldbash, and the conq will turtle more. gg.

get valk, dodge the shieldbash and finish. same with warden.

maybe more dogde attacks for all heros.

[Charmzzz]

Anyway. I don't really agree with a lot of what charmz is going off about here. But i'm happy they finally acknowledge pk's poor state for him. Hopefully she gets better again sometime soon.

Where do you disagree? I am really interested!

[Siegfried-Z]

Nobody want to play vs a turtle player. = leave. free win for Conq. but ok. dont count it.

ya, reduce shieldbash, and the conq will turtle more. gg.

get valk, dodge the shieldbash and finish. same with warden.

maybe more dogde attacks for all heros.

Man, you're saying things based on a minus argue.. winrate doesn't results as a consequence of a good or bad pick rate at all.

Try, their are not so much correlation between it just looking at the data. And don't forget many char has a good pick rate because what? because they are good

[DrinkinMyStella]

you know what who cares anymore, play or don't play and just accept this game will not reach any state of balance that we want, its game game that will forever have ups and downs and more downs than ups

[DefiledDragon]

Stella's right. It's clear at this point that the designers have no clue whatsoever how to balance the roster of a fighting game and it's simply a question of whether or not you enjoy the game enough to put up with the abysmal balancing, because it's not going anywhere.

[Charmzzz]

you know what who cares anymore, play or don't play and just accept this game will not reach any state of balance that we want, its game game that will forever have ups and downs and more downs than ups

I did care for a long time now, and I vent my frustration about the Dev's decision after every "State of Balance", haha, what a contradiction that title is... But you are right, this game will never get to the point of being balanced, even in the slightest possible way. Core mechanics are flawed and everything gets a bandaid instead of real fixes.

I will drop it when something else that catched my eye is released (RDR2 on PC, Cyberpunk 2077 or Camelot Unchained atm).

[The_B0G_]

The news on conq not getting touched is ridiculous. "We know he's OP, but won't fix him" is basically their stance, saying the worst 3 characters in the game for turtling is the answer to beating him, great job devs, the 3 characters with absolutely no safe offensive options are the best at dealing with conq... even though winrates say differently.


Then there is this gem of a write up about light spam, and I never heard anything about assassin meta on the forums yet, that must be from the memetards on reddit, they aren't connected issues.

"An issue we read about from non-top tier players is that they talk about a “light spam”, or an “assassin meta”. This has been a difficulty to approach balancing-wise for us, since these complaints often drown out the evidence of how weak “light spam” is at the top level of play. When we look at the dataset above, we see Shaman is the only Assassin in the top half of the Win Rate, and Shaman isn’t famous for her “light spam” at any level of play.

In presenting our data here, we want players to understand that “light spam”, while annoying, doesn’t actually yield overpowered characters. Learning to combat such offense is an important step for a player to improve their For Honor skillset. As our intention is to keep pushing 1v1 combat into a meta in which offense is more viable, it’s important that the community understand where we stand on this topic."

This is a perfect example of the devs only seeing this game as a PC platform game, they mark down people who bring up concerns about light spam as "non-top tier players" problem, even though the vast majority of player base is on console, where light spam is the problem, I'm not saying this is all because 60 fps vs 30 fps, it has many contributors, they mark the issue up to a learn to play problem, please explain to me how you can learn to predict every light an Orochi will spam out, should I buy a crystal ball?

PC balance, does not work for console, I would love to see what the winrates and stats are on console vs pc, I'm sure we'll never see it though, that would show just how different the two platforms are, I would bet that most of the 10% the Orochi got in winrate was from consoles and not PC.


TLDR: The game keeps getting worse on console, all changes and balances are made from the top-tier player statistics, which are undoubtedly from the PC platform for the most part, seeing as how the game is balanced for it. The state of balance for this season was a big eye opener for me, I'm beginning to lose all faith that this game will get any better, in another year this will be Dynasty Warriors, no more mind games, just everyone smashing out unblockable bashes and unreactable combos that are too fast to defend against.

[Charmzzz]

This is a perfect example of the devs only seeing this game as a PC platform game, they mark down people who bring up concerns about light spam as "non-top tier players" problem, even though the vast majority of player base is on console, where light spam is the problem, I'm not saying this is all because 60 fps vs 30 fps, it has many contributors, they mark the issue up to a learn to play problem, please explain to me how you can learn to predict every light an Orochi will spam out, should I buy a crystal ball?

PC balance, does not work for console, I would love to see what the winrates and stats are on console vs pc, I'm sure we'll never see it though, that would show just how different the two platforms are, I would bet that most of the 10% the Orochi got in winrate was from consoles and not PC.


TLDR: The game keeps getting worse on console, all changes and balances are made from the top-tier player statistics, which are undoubtedly from the PC platform for the most part, seeing as how the game is balanced for it. The state of balance for this season was a big eye opener for me, I'm beginning to lose all faith that this game will get any better, in another year this will be Dynasty Warriors, no more mind games, just everyone smashing out unblockable bashes and unreactable combos that are too fast to defend against.

Statistics are taken both from Console and PC, so it might be that Light Spam is not a guaranteed win in high level play on Console, too. Just think about that as a possibility.

And 400ms Lights are MEANT to be unreactable, both on PC and Console. They stated that in this Recap and I quoted it. 400ms Lights are meant to be predicted, not reacted to. So you have to guess where the followup Light will be, switch your guard (or leave it) and have a 33% change of being right. That is the offensive concept of PK, Orochi and Zerker as they do not have unblockable openers to be aggressive.

[Klingentaenz3r]

Side Dodge Normalization: We adjusted the side dodge recovery of all heroes to be 600ms – some heroes now have faster recovery while some have slower recovery.

What does that mean? Did you or did you NOT normalize Side Dodge recoveries? That sentence is contrary in its meaning.

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Should read like this: "We adjusted the side dodge recovery of all heroes to be 600ms – some heroes now have faster recovery while some have slower recovery THAN BEFORE
There you go.

"Conqueror
Conqueror still extremely strong in 1v1. The ability to do a forward dodge and Shield Bash or Guard Break can impose good pressure across the cast. However – what’s interesting here is that while the Conqueror is strong for that reason – when you look at the rest of the top list, they mostly want to counter-attack. The suspicion is that the other top characters (especially Centurion, Lawbringer, Shugoki) would beat Conquerors by countering, and not by initiating combat. This is a large reason for the hesitancy to nerf Conqueror’s Shield Bash – while it’s a difficult pressure tool to deal with, we do need pressuring attacks that force reactions, and control the pace of combat. Instead of nerfing the strong tools, we prefer to continue to improve the weak tools."

Uhm, what!? You admit that Conq Bash is a strong tool (it ignores core mechanic rules btw...) but hesitate to nerf it? WHY the f*ck??? Your other 3 "top characters", namely Shugo / LB / Cent, DO NOT BEAT Conq in Winrate. Did you even look at the Data? Conq beats them easily with 61 (Shugo and Cent) or even 68 (vs LB!!!) %. This whole paragraph is plainly ridiculous and pathetic.
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to be fair: The writing is pathetic and more misleading than actually clear. However it should be obvious for you that with top characters they simple refer to the 1v1 table and the given results there. That is not stating anything about the characters being high tier or not. Plus I believe that what the message they tried here to convey was simply that they have a feeling conq beats everyone easily with his offense whilst those others mentioned can only win against conq IF they counter his play somehow since their own offense cannot dictate the pace in that match up AND state that rather than making them better at counter attacking they would like to improve their own pressure tools (whilst also stating that they find conqs pressure tool quite noice as it is :P)

To me this whole thing showed that the statistics are somewhat incredibly flawed (I never took them too seriously to begin with as they don't reflect on the tier lists I would agree to).

Given the time it took until we got this I was expecting a much more detailed and reflected post on this.

[The_B0G_]

Statistics are taken both from Console and PC, so it might be that Light Spam is not a guaranteed win in high level play on Console, too. Just think about that as a possibility.

And 400ms Lights are MEANT to be unreactable, both on PC and Console. They stated that in this Recap and I quoted it. 400ms Lights are meant to be predicted, not reacted to. So you have to guess where the followup Light will be, switch your guard (or leave it) and have a 33% change of being right. That is the offensive concept of PK, Orochi and Zerker as they do not have unblockable openers to be aggressive.

That's only for the 400 ms attacks though, on console with delay and lag, even the 500 ms attacks are difficult to block unless it's the starter of the chain, that's what I'm trying to get across, the game isn't balanced for console. I have friends that used to play console and have switched over to PC, when they come back to play with me they all notice how different the gameplay is, and how strong light spam is compared to PC, and that gameplay is way more aggressive in general.

I know they won't ever balance seperately for both because they can't even balance PC right, but it will be the end of the game on console because of it. Maybe not right away, but this game isn't exactly noob friendly so new players that stick around are rare and long time players are slowly giving up hope for the game we've been wishing for.

Like others have said, winrate numbers isn't the end all discussion on balance, statistic. LB is garbage unless you turtle with him. They state they are trying to make the game more offensive minded, yet a few paragraphs before saying that they say the conq can be beaten by arguably the 3 weakest heroes in the game by turtling.

The devs seem completely lost. Just like my hopes that this game will improve.