[Suggestions] [Feedback] The current state of some Ninja techniques
Remade the thread due to the lack of tags in the previous one.
Hello staff,
So after many hours of playing the beta, I think that it ended on a pretty positive note for me, and for most people too. However, what I'd like to talk about is a part of the game that some people hold very dearly: the Ninja difficulty.
Before saying anything more, we Ninja players are fully aware that the game physics are nearly (but not yet) definitive, and that things are still subject to change.
Whereas speedrunners are mostly very happy with how the game plays, ninja players (Especially high-level players) unfortunately do not share the same feeling. If I were to give out an estimate, the general feeling is mostly 65%-70% of concerns and worries about how the bike's physics and the numerous Ninja techniques play out in Trials Rising. What I'd like to talk about is how the bike physics feel from the perspective of a high level Ninja player, how those different techniques are currently handled in Fusion, compare them to how well they work in Rising, and point out the flaws. I'll say it right off the bat though: Some techniques are impossible to perform in Rising, and this is a worrying black dot for us Ninja players.
Without further ado, let's get started. I may add more things I'd have omitted in the original post.
Bike physics
The general feeling about the Mantis is that it isn't well-suited for Ninja riding. We know that neither the bike nor the physics were built around it. Nor was it the case for Evolution's Phoenix Evo, or Fusion's Pit Viper, and we ended up just adapting to how those bikes handled. The real problem is that there would be far too many changes from Fusion if Rising's current bike physics were kept in the final game. Again, some techniques that were possible (and easy to do) in Fusion are now impossible to perform in Rising.
To go into details, the bike seems to have had its center of mass moved (slightly to the front/back?), which, AFAIK, is the main cause of all this technique mumble-jumble. It feels quite a bit heavier at the front. Let's see what this change in mass has affected, technique-wise.
DISCLAIMER: As Ninja techniques are very difficult to explain through text, video explanation works best for them, so I suggest you watch this video before carrying on to reading the rest of this thread.
Ninja techniques
The fender grab/hook
This is one of the more popular Ninja techniques, as it's performed very often in most Ninja tracks and possesses many variants. It basically consists of using the space between your rear wheel and the rear fender to get it stuck on platform ledges, corners, and numerous other surfaces. It only works when the bike is upside down (i.e. halfway through a front flip), with a certain range of possible angles until the bike drops off the surface. You can also smash it into surfaces when coming from jumps, bounces, etc. All in all, there are lots of uses for it.
How it works in Fusion:
There isn't much issue with the fender grab in Fusion, aside from it dropping off corners/ ledges when letting the bike go below certain angles. It can be performed pretty much anywhere, given that there is a sufficiently angular ledge and that your approach to getting it stuck to said ledge is good.
How it works in Rising:
This is where it gets problematic. Clipping the rear fender onto thin surfaces (like wooden plank edges) is now useless; your bike ends up getting stuck with no way of going back up onto the plank, or using it for underhook drops. The basic workaround would be for builders to just use thicker surfaces, but that ends up becoming rather restrictive in terms of track building. Thin planks are, after all, widely used objects.
The second issue with the fender grab is that its range of possible angles has been narrowed, making your bike drop off more frequently. And finally, one more worrying thing is that it tends to bounce off a lot from objects, making it inconsistent to smash into them with momentum.
Brake button mashing
Commonly known as a technique whose name won't be mentioned here because ninjas are bad at naming techniques Kappa, it is one of the core pillars of the Ninja difficulty. How it works is pretty simple; it consists of lifting your back wheel up while maintaining the gas and mashing the brake button as fast as you can. Widely used in avoiding falling off platforms, gaining momentum in front flips, and other types of saves.
How it works in Fusion:
This technique is probably the easiest to practice in the game, among all ninja techniques. Not much to say about it, honestly, it's really that easy. What's hard to master is how fast you can mash the brake button.
How it works in Rising:
Unfortunately, the problem of the bike's center of mass having been moved causes trouble with this technique, as it's significantly harder to lift up the back wheel. I've had situations where I couldn't lift the back wheel at all despite mashing super fast, and I know for sure it'd have worked in Fusion. This is, personally, one of my more worrying concerns.
Front wheel handling - front suspension
The handling of the front wheel offers for various techniques and saves. The most common of them are front wheeling on surfaces (either upwards/downwards slopes, flights of "stairs", sliding down entire ramps), front wheel hooks (hanging onto a thin platform with your front wheel on top), and front wheel bounces. They're mostly used in tracks that involve front/back wheel gimmicks.
How it works in Fusion:
The Pit Viper has a very flexible front suspension, so it allows for an easy execution of pretty much every front wheel technique. The brake also works pretty well.
How it works in Rising:
It... doesn't.
Well, not exactly. There are various problems with the Mantis' front wheel. First one being that when you're doing a stoppie, your bike is still moving front/backwards despite being 100% on the brake. It's like the front wheel has loose screws. Another problem is that the suspension feels horribly stiff, and this is a more problematic issue. Any technique that involves front wheel bouncing becomes really weird, or really difficult. Unfortunately it isn't the worst.
What is the worst, is that front wheel hooking is basically useless now. There is little to no way to recover from front wheel hooks, as your bike bounces backwards off the ledge you're hanging onto for whatever reason. And that's a moderately common technique that pretty much goes down the trash bin, which is a shame.
Throttle control - Steep hill climbing
Originally an emergent technique from Trials HD, it only got commonly used much later on during Evolution's golden days. The principle is rather simple; careful control of the right trigger to get past (sometimes) difficult, steep walls. The "easy to pick up, very hard to master" kind of technique. Another emergent technique from throttle control is back wheel climbing, which is mostly used in many of the highest-level Ninja tracks.
How it works in Fusion:
Since the bike sticks pretty well to walls, there is little to no problem with climbing walls and steep inclines. Of course there is a limit to how high/how steep you can climb...
How it works in Rising:
...Unlike in Rising, where the bike is basically able to climb infinite vertical walls, and probably even stand still on those with very precise levels of throttle control. If you think I'm joking, I actually mean that literally. Watch this video clip from Scottah:
If this were Fusion, such a setup would NEVER have worked out. The wall is vertical. The front wheel dipping should have caused a speed loss, and most importantly, you can see Scottah manages to maintain a constant throttle speed over the full length of that vertical wall.. Try out the same thing in Trials Fusion, and it will never work. Believe me, I'm talking from 5+ years of experience in Ninja tracks, and I do believe other experienced ninjas can say the same.
Anyway... While this isn't exactly an "issue" per say, it makes throttle control really OP and unrealistic. Not that Ninja tracks are even realistic in the first place, but there is one such thing as "too unrealistic". With enough practice, it would be a matter of time until ridiculously tall walls can be climbed without trouble in Rising.
Spiderman saves
Reminder, sometimes people are bad at naming techniques. This is a good example. So what's a "Spiderman save": It's a technique that consists of hanging to a vertical wall, with your front wheel laying atop the wall on a horizontal surface. To perform the save itself, you need to let the front wheel slowly fall backwards, and throttle up the wall carefully (or go full throttle and endo up the platform) so you can recover.
How it works in Fusion:
Works exactly as I've described, although you need to be rather precise when performing that kind of save, as sometimes your bike will slip off without warning. But otherwise, it's pretty manageable.
How it works in Rising:
Performing a Spiderman save in Rising is... REALLY difficult. The principle is the same; however you have to be practically vertical and can only slow throttle up to recover. And even yet, your bike will slip off the wall, which makes it inconsistent on top of being super hard. I like to believe that this is yet another issue related to the slight variations in bike physics/weight dist/center of mass.
Possible Improvements/fixes
I'm fully aware that not much can be done this far into the game's development, but I wanna believe that there are still ways to tweak the physics and/or adapt them to ninja players.
1. A new bike dedicated to Ninja.
This feels like the best option, and the one that has been the most popular among the community.. Of course it'd take a bunch of work, but if the Mantis is good for speedrunning, my personal suggestion would then be to start from the Mantis' framework and adapt it/modify it for Ninja techniques. Whether it'd be available on release, or later as DLC, it doesn't matter a lot. But I do believe it'd solve a lot of issues.
2. Adapt the Mantis itself for Ninja techniques.
Now this is a more risky option, but it wouldn't require creating an entirely new bike. It is risky because of how precise the physics in Trials games are, and because tweaking one setting can mess up five others, which in turn create a complete mess of a set of physics. Also, it might lessen the bike's potential for speedrunning, which could make some speedrunning players angry. So this choice is about finding the right balance while still adapting the bike for the Ninja players.
A personal suggestion from myself, and other Ninja players
If I can allow myself to do so, I (along with other members of the Ninja community) would be really grateful if we could have a Beta phase featuring at least one Ninja track for us to test out. This would allow us Ninja players to extensively test almost every existing technique, much more than what we've done so far in this first Closed Beta phase, and that way we would be able to provide very accurate feedback on the handling of the bike in various situations. Maybe we would also be able to correct some already established opinions.
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Thanks for reading through this massive wall of text, hopefully staff will consider at least a few of the aforementioned options/issues. The Ninja community holds the Trials franchise very dearly in their hearts, and most of us have felt like this first Beta phase has left a bittersweet taste. The game is really good and I can't wait for the full release, but so far, it is more of a pure speedrunning game, and isn't really adapted to Ninja players.
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