[SUGGESTION] Do we want to play Super Mario World or a Clancy-game with tension? | Forums

[redsept]

....again, in the way those earlier R6 games were designed, I love the idea. I simply don't agree with your solutions regarding a player's character. I want to bring back those elements too but more the way they were.

So in your mind, what is wrong with my solution? Compared to the old R6 games, what is bad about my suggestion?

There's no wrong or right here and to be honest, no way to convince me that that I would find some of those twists you presented on permadeath for the player's character particularly fun. I simply don't agree with everything you said.

I didn't say more fun, but if I did, I have to add that fun is a very subjective emotion. But what I do think it would bring to the game compared to normal campaign: more tension, excitement, strategy, surprises and variety. And we can disagree about stuff, but please let me know what else you disagree about. I'm here to discuss about what would be the ultimate middle-road between Ghost Mode and regular campaign. There is one, and it's called options. What would the options be, that can found looking back at the early R6 games and combine that with the leveling system to make death matter.

I'm also sure that it's hard to convince you, but take a look at State of Decay 2, do you think that mechanic is flawed somehow and not suitable for Wildlands?

[LoneSpymaster]

- Lives matter in Mario World
- You can collect Life
- When you die but still have Life, enemy respawns, your progress retained for the time being, just like Campaign KIA
- When you run out of Lives, you are reset to point one - just like Ghost Mode

- Super Mario World is a mid 80 games coming from different genre and technical level
- Ghost Recon Wildlands is 2017 game as a tactical shooter open world game where you play as a an specific agent called Nomad where the game keeps progressing and death canonically does not happen which when player fails, it's disregarded with a soft reset
- Both games are irrelevant
- Your hope of having these kind of games growing should be placed in military simulation game such as Arma

This exactly 100% right.

[FREEMAN0129]

Just go play ARMA. I think you're better off that way.

[Kean_1]

So in your mind, what is wrong with my solution? Compared to the old R6 games, what is bad about my suggestion?

I thought I clarified that but maybe I didn't.

Starting off from scratch with my character when I die doesn't appeal to me nor does the thought of being penalized by reverting my character to a lower level, removing skills, etc. In the early R6 games, there was a character pool where your team (including you) are sourced from. You can soul swap, groom members, etc.

I didn't say more fun, but if I did, I have to add that fun is a very subjective emotion. But what I do think it would bring to the game compared to normal campaign: more tension, excitement, strategy, surprises and variety. And we can disagree about stuff, but please let me know what else you disagree about. I'm here to discuss about what would be the ultimate middle-road between Ghost Mode and regular campaign. There is one, and it's called options. What would the options be, that can found looking back at the early R6 games and combine that with the leveling system to make death matter.

I'm also sure that it's hard to convince you, but take a look at State of Decay 2, do you think that mechanic is flawed somehow and not suitable for Wildlands?

I'm all for options but personally, I'm not looking for any middle road between GM and the regular campaign. I don't like GM mainly because it was created with permadeath as its backbone. However, I do like the other features they included which many of us had asked for as options in the main game. ......unfortunately, they were locked behind this new PD mode.

IMO, a character pool and soul swapping like we had in the original R6 games is not feasible in GRW. .....and I doubt they would implement it in GRW2 if it ever came to fruition. I like those original games but in the form that they were.

GRW was a great game for me and I always thought that the core gameplay was very enjoyable for me. .....just needed more polishing and some more options. GRW is a game about 4 specific operators. I like penalty mechanics in some games but in GRW I think it does well in this respect the way it was originally designed. It's no different than other games where characters are part of the story and cannot die unless it's in the script.

Penalties or setbacks in this game come in the form of the resetting of missions, etc. For me, it's more about the tactics and gunplay in GRW so this kind of mechanic works for me. Personally, I would rather see other options to allow players to further tweak gameplay aspects like the ability to turn off skills once acquired, choose empty slots for weapons / gear, more options for the minimap, a compass, HUD for the old helo controls, more control/commands for your team AI, etc. .....but that's just me.

btw, never played SoD but I know what it is and I can appreciate it. I bet I would have liked it but I'm on PS4. Either way, don't take my criticism as some kind of dismissal of your ideas. If folks like what you propose then I hope something comes of it.

[redsept]

Just go play ARMA. I think you're better off that way.

That is probably the worst feedback, ever. Why evolve something when something completely different already exists? On the wrong platform. C'mon.

No feedback or ideas to take things further. FREEMAN0129, surely you can do better than that. No hard feelings, I'm just really wondering why people even bother posting comments like yours...

I play the Ghost Mode and I'd like to see permadeath implemented in a more sensible way into Wildlands, as an OPTION. I'm not sure if that alone is a good reason to "just go play ARMA".

[redsept]

This exactly 100% right.

Not really...

But do you realize that Kane_sg just proved my point?

- When you die but still have Life, enemy respawns, your progress retained for the time being, just like Campaign KIA
- When you run out of Lives, you are reset to point one - just like Ghost Mode

Even Super Mario World has these BOTH aspects implemented! You continue the campaign even if you die, but you can die permanently. Super Mario can die. Nomad can't die, and that is a shame in Wildlands. Ghost Mode tried to fix the situation, but in went a bit overboard with its solution. I'm here present a better one and gather ideas how to perfect it.

And Mario can degrade, that's also important to note. The flying and other abilities can be lost. Which is good, because it would be silly to play the game with Yoshi ever since he got it and you couldn't lose Yoshi ever again before game over. It would make the game boring. That's what happens in Wildlands, you gain a supersoldier who can't die. And the campaign can't end in your death. Ghost Mode's permadeath took it too far away, it deletes your campaign, something you could have actually done yourself before if you're a masochist, just by deleting your savegame every time you die in the game...

- Both games are irrelevant

So why are you here on this forum of an irrelevant game, putting down ideas how to it make possibly better?? And Super Mario World is hardly an irrelevant game, it is one of the cornerstones of gaming history. Game design isn't tied down to a genre/platform/decade. It's a theory that is applied to all games.

Game design is the most overlooked aspect in games, even still today, which could be easily enhanced. All the attention lately has been in graphics and open worlds. And I love open worlds, don't get me wrong! But game design, the rules you play by, what is allowed to be done and how it affects the game world, that has stayed pretty stale in the last 20-30 years. I think Cyberpunk 2077 will show new ways of seeing possibilities in games.

Tom Clancy games have always been pioneers in implementing great gameplay choices and new ways to interact with the world and its characters! Chaos Theory was so innovative! And R6 games were so well done, even in 1998, with amazing music, very deep tactical choices, a squad roster and permadeath for the squad members. I'm not saying that all those aspects should be brought back (although I would love to see it happen), but bring back at least the one that made the games feel so much more exciting than Wildlands: permadeath for the soldiers.

Casual gaming is one reason for the oversimplification of games. And I get it, I'm not against casual gamers. But allow other gamers to have options on how to make the game more suitable for them, add just a few options to make the game feel more like real life. A small step for the developers, a big step for Wildlands's evolution and replayability. One small option. That's all.

Go play State of Decay 2 and you will understand how the permadeath system makes the game feel much more like a coherent world that is always changing and evolving, not constantly going back in time and full of re-spawns. A world that is always going forward, and one history is created, no retakes. You mess things up, your guy dies. Simple. He's gone and he becomes a part of the story. But the campaign goes on, no matter what. And you learn from your mistakes, because you have to. Otherwise you will be losing your character all over again.

- Your hope of having these kind of games growing should be placed in military simulation game such as Arma

Ubisoft has told us that they're probably bringing Ghost Mode functions to the main campaign. I say bring permadeath for ghost to main campaign as an option, I'm not sure if that is such a big request in that light.

[redsept]

IMO, a character pool and soul swapping like we had in the original R6 games is not feasible in GRW. .....and I doubt they would implement it in GRW2 if it ever came to fruition. I like those original games but in the form that they were.

Now I see your point more clearly, thanks for the explanation.

But let me ask you this: What did you think of permadeath in the original R6? Did it make the game better or worse?

And why couldn't permadeath for ghost be easily implemented to Wildlands? Just take the story out IF played with this option, all problems solved. I'm still trying to figure out why does the story have to be told over and over again to the players in every PvE game mode, it's not like we already don't know how it goes. Few people care about the story on the 5th playtrough of a game. We know why we're in Bolivia.

[Ghost416]

Did you know Ubisoft already removed Weawer, Holt and Midas from the action when they let single player gamers remove them? The game pops up a warning message that says that narrative inconsistencies may occur now. So Ubi did it already, they're not slaves to the plot anymore and they wont let the plot stop them from improving the gameplay.

That's not even remotely the same thing as what I'm talking about and you know it. Besides, you yourself just admitted that removing those three characters breaks the narrative, thus supporting my point.

Lets say there is a ghost hub on the border and there are a few ghosts always there ready to join the action. And reinforcements come if necessary. All the ghosts could have a codename Nomad and they're untraceable back to the States, maybe all from other continents. I'm sure there are a million ways to make this at least as believable as the plots in Clancy's books and games. It's not very hard with a little bit of imagination.

With a little imagination, they can add ridable dinosaurs to the game. Doesn't mean it would fit the game or the story it's telling.

[redsept]

That's not even remotely the same thing as what I'm talking about and you know it. Besides, you yourself just admitted that removing those three characters breaks the narrative, thus supporting my point.

Playing 2 player co-op breaks the story. Playing 3 player co-op breaks the story. Removing others in single player game breaks the story. Are you suggesting Ubi should remove all these ways to play too? I don't thinks so. This is an artificial problem. You have the story where it belongs, nobody is coming to take it away.

One of those was added in the latest update. So it's not like the story is untouchable. You can remove the story altogether from THIS game mode, just leave the mission data in. And this would still be an optional way to play, not removing you from your Wildlands story. If you still want a story, it's not too hard to come up with something that would work in a Clancy book.

But anyways, going back to the suggested permadeath mode, I'll write a list why the general story isn't needed here as much:


1) The story is created with your actions & Death becomes the story

No quick-loading, no re-pawning, no checkpoints. When you die, you die. There is no going back, and you lose your ghost. Maybe he was level 4, maybe 24. How he died becomes relevant again. Were you pinned in heavy fire by the bridge, with no good cover if you move away from the car that is already burning. You try to make a run for it, it's now or never! And you get cut down by a LMG, lose your ghost and promise yourself you'll never use that stupid strategy again.

You learn, you adapt, you strategize more (vs. the checkpoint/respawn system). You become better because you're more motivated. No quick-loading backwards. What you do really matters, every single time! Dying matters again, as you have invested skill points in your ghost. (If you fear frustration, don't use permadeath.)


2) Retrieving the guns is a return to the crime scene

You see the body of your dead ghost who was unable to escape the last bullet. You see the place he died, and remember how he really looked like. Yol see the place again where you made your wrong choices. But he's dead now so he's not getting back up again, so you have to get the gunzz.

This becomes a mini-mission every time you die. The body is guarded by 10 cartel members, so first you'll have to take them out, wherever the body is located. It can be anywhere, so the place is totally random. Only after you get to the body you get to your old guns and gear. (If you die on this mission, the original ghost remains intact with your guns, so you'll never lose them.)


3) Their lives and deaths matter again

Remembering the ghosts who died with a screen of places of deaths, stats of killed enemies etc., photos and maybe even videos of the sad moment how you lost your ghost, that would be support the story of how the campaign has really proceeded. Every death is counted for, nobody goes forgotten. And since you can customize each character, they're really unique gosts. Every ghost is precious when they become skilled. That's why the tension and excitement would be higher than without permadeath. (Again, if you fear frustration and don't want your ghost to die, don't use permadeath.)


4) The cheat-mode is finally turned off

When you play a racing game with a rewind button (like Forza Horizon etc.), you can rewind back a few hundred meters and try again. I call that cheating in racing if you can do re-takes. In Wildlands, you always rewind back if you die. Wildlands is like Forza but with the rewind button forced on. That would make Forza boring, every time you drive off the road, the game automatically rewinds you back on the road. That is what Wildlands does, it automatically rewinds you back on the road again every time you mess up. It doesn't even allow you to mess up.


5) No cutscenes or videos, you are the story

The cutscenes in Wildlands are a bit over the top for many, and it sometimes feels more like watching a really poor episode of CSI or some other crappy cop drama. The acting isn't par with the rest of the game, IMHO, nor is it par with Clancy legacy. The story is nice, the acting is not. And it takes you away from the game world, you suddenly can't control your actions at all. So dump the acting, the briefings can be done with text files and/or radio. Now your actions become the story, not some pre-made cutscenes with only one outcome. (If you like the story, it will still be there.)


R6) Permadeath honors the original Clancy R6 games

Don't be a fool or you'll get your ghost killed, for good.