Shaolin Feedback & Tweak Suggestions | Forums

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

Shaolin is a strong complex character with plenty of depth. His Qi Stance is a very unique concept which allows for a lot of mix-ups. I’m not sure why he got a nerf from the previous test since most good Shaolin players got by with skill rather than exploits in my experience. The only thing that seemed overpowered previously was his Blink feat but that doesn’t do any damage. However, I would still suggest some tweaks to make some of his tools more accessible and patch some weaknesses.


1) Qi Stance
1a) Allow Shaolin to transition to Qi Stance from Side Shadow Step.

1b) Allow Shaolin to cancel his Zone Attack into Qi Stance.

1c) Cut the stamina cost for Qi stance at least in half. It goes down far too quickly, especially when compared to Highlander, Conqueror, Valkyrie, and Warlord. Qi Stance is a huge part of his toolkit and his identity so it needs to be more accessible.

1d) Allow Shaolin to cancel Qi Stance with a dodge.

2) Chain Starters
Allow Shaolin to have the additional chain starters:

2a) Side Shadow Step

2b) Bounding Blossom

2c) Elegant Lotus


Final Thoughts
Shaolin is an interesting and fun character. I like his complexities and, yet, he was easier to get into than I thought he would be. My first impressions of him were that he simply wasn’t my style but he’s been slowly growing on me during the test. However, my first picks from the Wu Lin faction are Jiang Jun and Tiandi but I can see why many players like Shaolin. Again, I still don’t see why he got the nerf he received from the last test since the only issue I had with him was his Blink feat; everything else was down to the Shaolin players being better than me. I wish other characters like Centurion and Shaman would get nerfed as quickly but they are not on the Marching Fire deadline, I guess.

Below is a video of me playing Shaolin in Breach. Sorry, no great performances here:

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[HonorKirby]

I quite agree with you in the fact of Shaolin having a very deep and complex kit. I still couldn't quite understand why they nerfed him so much after the Closed Beta; he was pretty solid in terms of weakness and strengths. I like all the proposed buffs you gave him, and most felt like they could make sense. They don't seem to be too overbearing and make sense. I do have some more buffs I would wish to see. They are mostly QoL changes if anything.

1) Qi Stance
1a) Instead of cutting the cost of Qi Stance, remove Stamina Drain from Qi Stance completely.
Reasons: Qi Stance is very similar to Highlander's Offensive Stance in which it requires to lose your guard for better attacks. Shaolin's strengths during this are his very wide range of moves for any situation. Unlike Highlander, however, two of them are Unblockable, while the others don't force a reaction. He, also unlike Highlander, cannot move or Dodge in it or even out of it. Highlander does not even drain stamina during his Stance either. Removing the Stamina Drain would put him in line with other characters in term of Versatility vs. Usability with those types of moves.

1b) Add Astonishing Blossom back, and allow it to initiate Chains
Reasons: Shaolin had a wide variety of moves that differed depending on what direction Stance they were in. His Top Qi Light had Stunned, unlike its Side counterparts. However, it did not deal any less damage, which I could see of which that could be a reason for removing it. I propose that Astonishing Blossom is added back, with the ability to Stun and be used as a Chain Starter in exchange for less damage (and to an extent less Sup. Block damage). I believe (without knowing the numbers off the top of my head), that the original damage for all three lights was 20 (except for the original Right Light 25 damage bug), and their Sup. Block counterparts were 40. I propose that Bounding Blossom deal 25 damage with it being slower and no other versatility, as well as having a 40 damage Sup. Block, while Astonishing Blossom deals 17 damage and Stun, and its Sup. Block counterpart deal only 30 damage.

1c) Add a New Move in Qi Stance: Blossoming Lotus (Light + Heavy)
Reasons: I believe that Shaolin was meant to be made with group fighting in mind. His infinite combo, his various feats, and his Qi Stance all scream GROUP FIGHTING. However, his Qi Stance is good for ganking, but not for anti-ganking. I believe he should have a Zone in his Qi Stance just so he can have some breathing room. His Zone would have Hyper armor, and the first hit would be 600ms and would come from his Left. It would be similar to Kensei's current Zone, in which it would have 4 total strikes. Two covering the front, the other two covering the back on the way around. It would behave similarly to Shaman's Zone, in which the first two strikes are guaranteed if hit, and the other two likewise. It would not be cancellable; however, if the first two hits succeed on hit, the next two hits are unparriable (but not Unblockable) to the target of the Zone (as you know that hits not directed towards you cannot be parried.)
The name is actually a combination of the names of the Light and Heavy attacks from Qi Stance, considering that a Zone is both inputs

2) Monkey Trick
2a) Add Monkey Trick back
Reasons: Monkey Trick was a very niche move, but it had filled its role nicely. I have no reason as to why they removed it, but maybe they deemed it too useless. In my opinion, if a move has a niche and fits it well, it doesn't need removing. Maybe instead of just being a retreat move, it could apply Stun. This would increase its effectiveness of its niche-role, without it being too strong or too useless.

2b) Allow Qi Stance to be cancelled with Monkey Trick (or a variation)
Reasons: If Monkey Trick was added back, this would be a good retreat for Shaolin. Since his Qi Stance moves all are offensive or evasive, this could be his only real way of retreating. Maybe instead of the normal input of S + Top Stance + Light, it could be a variation move specifically for Qi Stance. It would go like this: (From Qi Stance) S + Any Stance + Light (Stuns). It would also be great Parry Bait for the opponent, considering retreat moves like Viper's Retreat and Monkey Trick tend to be very slow considering they are Lights.

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

I quite agree with you in the fact of Shaolin having a very deep and complex kit. I still couldn't quite understand why they nerfed him so much after the Closed Beta; he was pretty solid in terms of weakness and strengths. I like all the proposed buffs you gave him, and most felt like they could make sense. They don't seem to be too overbearing and make sense. I do have some more buffs I would wish to see. They are mostly QoL changes if anything.

1) Qi Stance
1a) Instead of cutting the cost of Qi Stance, remove Stamina Drain from Qi Stance completely.
Reasons: Qi Stance is very similar to Highlander's Offensive Stance in which it requires to lose your guard for better attacks. Shaolin's strengths during this are his very wide range of moves for any situation. Unlike Highlander, however, two of them are Unblockable, while the others don't force a reaction. He, also unlike Highlander, cannot move or Dodge in it or even out of it. Highlander does not even drain stamina during his Stance either. Removing the Stamina Drain would put him in line with other characters in term of Versatility vs. Usability with those types of moves.

1b) Add Astonishing Blossom back, and allow it to initiate Chains
Reasons: Shaolin had a wide variety of moves that differed depending on what direction Stance they were in. His Top Qi Light had Stunned, unlike its Side counterparts. However, it did not deal any less damage, which I could see of which that could be a reason for removing it. I propose that Astonishing Blossom is added back, with the ability to Stun and be used as a Chain Starter in exchange for less damage (and to an extent less Sup. Block damage). I believe (without knowing the numbers off the top of my head), that the original damage for all three lights was 20 (except for the original Right Light 25 damage bug), and their Sup. Block counterparts were 40. I propose that Bounding Blossom deal 25 damage with it being slower and no other versatility, as well as having a 40 damage Sup. Block, while Astonishing Blossom deals 17 damage and Stun, and its Sup. Block counterpart deal only 30 damage.

1c) Add a New Move in Qi Stance: Blossoming Lotus (Light + Heavy)
Reasons: I believe that Shaolin was meant to be made with group fighting in mind. His infinite combo, his various feats, and his Qi Stance all scream GROUP FIGHTING. However, his Qi Stance is good for ganking, but not for anti-ganking. I believe he should have a Zone in his Qi Stance just so he can have some breathing room. His Zone would have Hyper armor, and the first hit would be 600ms and would come from his Left. It would be similar to Kensei's current Zone, in which it would have 4 total strikes. Two covering the front, the other two covering the back on the way around. It would behave similarly to Shaman's Zone, in which the first two strikes are guaranteed if hit, and the other two likewise. It would not be cancellable; however, if the first two hits succeed on hit, the next two hits are unparriable (but not Unblockable) to the target of the Zone (as you know that hits not directed towards you cannot be parried.)
The name is actually a combination of the names of the Light and Heavy attacks from Qi Stance, considering that a Zone is both inputs

2) Monkey Trick
2a) Add Monkey Trick back
Reasons: Monkey Trick was a very niche move, but it had filled its role nicely. I have no reason as to why they removed it, but maybe they deemed it too useless. In my opinion, if a move has a niche and fits it well, it doesn't need removing. Maybe instead of just being a retreat move, it could apply Stun. This would increase its effectiveness of its niche-role, without it being too strong or too useless.

2b) Allow Qi Stance to be cancelled with Monkey Trick (or a variation)
Reasons: If Monkey Trick was added back, this would be a good retreat for Shaolin. Since his Qi Stance moves all are offensive or evasive, this could be his only real way of retreating. Maybe instead of the normal input of S + Top Stance + Light, it could be a variation move specifically for Qi Stance. It would go like this: (From Qi Stance) S + Any Stance + Light (Stuns). It would also be great Parry Bait for the opponent, considering retreat moves like Viper's Retreat and Monkey Trick tend to be very slow considering they are Lights.

Thanks for the feedback. You clearly have a better understanding of how Shaolin works and I appreciate the suggestions on bringing back old moves; that's a step in the right direction.

You're right about Qi Stance regarding stamina cost. It shouldn't be draining any stamina at all in light of what other characters can get away with and the actual limitations Qi Stance has in terms of movement. Again, Qi Stance is apart of Shaolin's identity so why restrict it? Tweaks are always better than completely removing or over-nerfing certain moves. Again, nice post, my friend. Thanks!

[HonorKirby]

Thanks for the feedback. You clearly have a better understanding of how Shaolin works and I appreciate the suggestions on bringing back old moves; that's a step in the right direction.

You're right about Qi Stance regarding stamina cost. It shouldn't be draining any stamina at all in light of what other characters can get away with and the actual limitations Qi Stance has in terms of movement. Again, Qi Stance is apart of Shaolin's identity so why restrict it? Tweaks are always better than completely removing or over-nerfing certain moves. Again, nice post, my friend. Thanks!

Thank you, actually, for reading my post. I usually never expect others to reply back. You too, seem to have good knowledge about how most characters work, and I respect that, as I have seen your other posts. Please, never stop posting, because maybe one day our voices will be heard.