Ubi.. Why so long on the CONQ NERF! | Forums

[Charmzzz]

If you bothered to actually test it, you'd see that it's clearly punishable in practice (on reaction at that) with a 600ms side dodge recovery. It just has to be quick enough. Just try with a bot in the training arena as it is guaranteed that it's not going to miss any counter guard breaks that are possible. You will find that you can get a guaranteed guard break after a forward shield on reaction quite consistently. Of course vs another player there's going to be some extra lag that isn't going to make it as consistent as you can do in the training arena but nonetheless you will clearly find that it's very much doable.

You keep harping on these "normalized recoveries" but you only mysteriously took up this quest for "normalized recoveries" when you decided that shield bash's miss recovery was the biggest problem in this game. You never cared pre-rework when shield bash had an even lower recovery at 600ms, is it because you were too busy with your 75% win rate as Peacekeeper vs Conqueror to care about balance let alone "normalized recoveries"?



Oh really? Is that so? Because last time I checked, PK got several buffs to other moves while receiving their damage nerfs in S6. The buffs included their soft feint for combo heavies, the ability to soft feint the zone attack into a top light, the soft feint into light from heavy being moved to the top instead of being the same direction as the heavy, and their bleeds now stack.

If you also looked at when Warlord got his large nerfs last year, they also increased his damage for several attacks. Meanwhile Conqueror and Vaklyrie who were C Tier at the time took collateral damage from a nerf meant for Warlord when full block stance prevented counter guard breaking and we didn't get anything but he did. For Conqueror specifically we got told from the devs "oh well you're going to get a rework at some point so it's fine" but it would still be another third of a year at least...

Just replying to the important, non attacking things and personal insults you keep throwing at me:

1. 700ms recovery - 600ms dodge recovery - latency - input lag = ? That would be ~50ms reaction time needed to get a GB off a correct read, which is bs for anyone to consistently get on reaction and not on prediction. If you dodge on prediction it means happy GBing for the Conq. The same bs we have on WL Headbutt, which is ridiculous as well. And Conq can just Light right after SB which will beat both the GB attempt or a Light.

2. I cared for PK balance, made several suggestions on how to nerf the option select Zone for example.

3. Which buffs on PK? You mean the bugfix on the broken soft-feints in chains? The only "buff" was the dagger cancel being actually not resulting in a Light-Parry all the time. Everything else was a nerf, on all fronts. Zone got nerfed to 15 Damage and got a mixup so it is not a guaranteed parry if you did not feint the second part of it.

I still don't see any viable argument from you which elaborates why Conq should keep a broken move. The only excuse you keep repeating is "but Conq does not have anything else", which does not validate SB being fine.

[The_B0G_]

Centurion back in the day was OP for several factors but miss recoveries was never one of them.The most glaring issue was his ability to 100-0 people simply by getting a jab near a wall, guaranteeing a heavy which in turn guaranteed a jab (as long as you changed direction for the heavy). In an extreme case of irony, the miss recovery for the uncharged jab was actually reduced from 800ms to 700ms in the same patch, which (fun fact) is the same miss recovery for Conqueror's shield bash.

You can see the aforementioned patch here: https://forhonor.ubisoft.com/game/en...41-patch-notes

As for Warden, there was a lot more wrong than just recovery time such as the window to cancel into a GB being so ridiculously long you could just wait for the opponent to dodge and then react to that by canceling into guard break. They also increased the stamina usage required, etc.



He was actually still quite solid because he could get so much damage off of a light parry. Then he went to crap after the parry changes. I guess you were too busy telling everyone to guard right to notice, though.



Well it just wouldn't be a Charmzz post if it didn't inevitably return to blubbering about Peacekeeper.



We know, Charmzz. WE KNOW...



If you bothered to actually test it, you'd see that it's clearly punishable in practice (on reaction at that) with a 600ms side dodge recovery. It just has to be quick enough. Just try with a bot in the training arena as it is guaranteed that it's not going to miss any counter guard breaks that are possible. You will find that you can get a guaranteed guard break after a forward shield on reaction quite consistently. Of course vs another player there's going to be some extra lag that isn't going to make it as consistent as you can do in the training arena but nonetheless you will clearly find that it's very much doable.

You keep harping on these "normalized recoveries" but you only mysteriously took up this quest for "normalized recoveries" when you decided that shield bash's miss recovery was the biggest problem in this game. You never cared pre-rework when shield bash had an even lower recovery at 600ms, is it because you were too busy with your 75% win rate as Peacekeeper vs Conqueror to care about balance let alone "normalized recoveries"?



Oh really? Is that so? Because last time I checked, PK got several buffs to other moves while receiving their damage nerfs in S6. The buffs included their soft feint for combo heavies, the ability to soft feint the zone attack into a top light, the soft feint into light from heavy being moved to the top instead of being the same direction as the heavy, and their bleeds now stack.

If you also looked at when Warlord got his large nerfs last year, they also increased his damage for several attacks. Meanwhile Conqueror and Vaklyrie who were C Tier at the time took collateral damage from a nerf meant for Warlord when full block stance prevented counter guard breaking and we didn't get anything but he did. For Conqueror specifically we got told from the devs "oh well you're going to get a rework at some point so it's fine" but it would still be another third of a year at least...

For how easy it is to pull off, Conqs shield bash is broken, it doesn't do a ton of damage but for some characters you can't punish it without parrying the light that comes after you dodge the SB, which is BS, especially parryling lights on console, they have to be done on prediction.

I understand you play Conq as a main and you love your unpunishable SB bash that you can mindlessly spam, but it isn't balanced. You're being ridiculously biased.

Fighting a conq that does nothing but SB spam is about as entertaining as fighting a Shugoki who does Light+headbutt the entire fight, but Shugoki has nothing but heavy attacks and feints to play with so at least he an excuse, like Orochi, Conq mains use this one small part of the kit that's abusable over and over again and claim he has nothing else.

He has superior heavy that if you let go as you're blocking a hit, is a free heavy attack and this can be a charged heavy, and you have a full block that you can use to feint that leads to a heavy and you can execute with it too. I'm positive you already know all of this, but these moves take skill and timing to pull off, not just dodge+bash+light 3 or 4 times in a row then sneak a GB in and go right back into the spam. Saying that all he has is SB is untrue, just lazy.

[KotoKuraken]

Conq's bash can be nerfed when Warden's is nerfed and Lawbringer's is buffed

#ChangeMyMind

[Charmzzz]

Conq's bash can be nerfed when Warden's is nerfed and Lawbringer's is buffed

#ChangeMyMind

Warden Bash: 700ms startup - counter it with a simple Light
Conq Bash: 500ms startup - no way to counter

[David_gorda]

Conq's bash can be nerfed when Warden's is nerfed and Lawbringer's is buffed

#ChangeMyMind

Pretty much, its a risk vs reward you have to consider. Conq get 13 damage guarentuee after bash, Warden double lights or a top heavy. Anyone with side dodge attack can punish conq and dodge attacks do more damage then 13 damage. Also like Said before conq dont really have any other attacking options.

[KotoKuraken]

Warden Bash: 700ms startup - counter it with a simple Light
Conq Bash: 500ms startup - no way to counter

Warden can cancel his bash at any time for a parry, or hold it for more charge to guarantee a heavy on your dodge and half the time on your roll. Warden can cancel it any time before he launches to ensure it's safe and can keep the guessing game going. Especially if you're a Lawbringer on PC, the fastest light is the top light and is easily parried by any competant Warden.

And again, Warden can easily use shoulderbash at a decent range in addition to being able to feint it at any time before launch, so he can play extremely safe

[Charmzzz]

Warden can cancel his bash at any time for a parry, or hold it for more charge to guarantee a heavy on your dodge and half the time on your roll. Warden can cancel it any time before he launches to ensure it's safe and can keep the guessing game going. Especially if you're a Lawbringer on PC, the fastest light is the top light and is easily parried by any competant Warden.

And again, Warden can easily use shoulderbash at a decent range in addition to being able to feint it at any time before launch, so he can play extremely safe

When Warden is out of range of your Light you are able to dodge his Bash easily on reaction and punish with a free GB. You cannot do that to Conq. If Warden is close to you - throw a Light. To parry it he will have to feint Bash first, then match your guard and then do the parry input in what, a 500-600ms timeframe? Sure, they do this ALL the time.... ^^

I simply do not dodge Warden Bash on prediction. I use Light when he is close or wait what he does when out of range. Conq meanwhile is a guessing game all the time.

[Charmzzz]

Pretty much, its a risk vs reward you have to consider. Conq get 13 damage guarentuee after bash, Warden double lights or a top heavy. Anyone with side dodge attack can punish conq and dodge attacks do more damage then 13 damage. Also like Said before conq dont really have any other attacking options.

It's not risky for Conq to just dodge forward and GB. To get the dodge-attack in you have to do the input on prediction, not reaction, because Conq Bash is 500ms and delayable into his dodge. The best thing to do is take the Bash and the 13 Damage, if you dodge-attack and he GB you the Damage is higher. What is the risk of Conq with this, nearly, 50/50 move?

[KotoKuraken]

It's not risky for Conq to just dodge forward and GB. To get the dodge-attack in you have to do the input on prediction, not reaction, because Conq Bash is 500ms and delayable into his dodge. The best thing to do is take the Bash and the 13 Damage, if you dodge-attack and he GB you the Damage is higher. What is the risk of Conq with this, nearly, 50/50 move?

I've always had a super easy time dodging Conq, because it's very definite when he'll bash vs when he won't.
Warden can keep feinting his bash over and over again until he decides it's safe and eventually goes through with it.
There's even a video on Reddit proving that reacting to Warden's bash up close is impossible; you have to predict that he'll actually go through with it before dodging

Warden is a 25/25/25/25. He can either feint into gb, let it go for double light, charge it for more damage on your dodge, or feint into neutral (and can easily parry from this)

[David_gorda]

It's not risky for Conq to just dodge forward and GB. To get the dodge-attack in you have to do the input on prediction, not reaction, because Conq Bash is 500ms and delayable into his dodge. The best thing to do is take the Bash and the 13 Damage, if you dodge-attack and he GB you the Damage is higher. What is the risk of Conq with this, nearly, 50/50 move?

you can get a guarentuee guardbreak if conq dodge and dont do the shieldbash so again its fair. It would be different if he had other attacking options like glad zone, or warlord running shield crush bit when fighting conq you only need to pay attention to shieldbash. Its fair compared to Similiar other abilities until he get other Similiar other attacks