So people are still OK w/ Kensei? | Forums

[NHLGoldenKnight]

And how many times will same people jump in to defend him?

I speak in my name only, but how do you think someone can struggle with basic game mechanics as you like to say, when at the same time I have no problem beating other Kensei while playing Kensei but I can barely touch him with any other hero? It doesn't make sense.

Also, for Valkris guy and few others, I am going to start little project of mine. I am going to take scoreboard screen shots of every Dominion game where there is at least one Kensei involved and I will post those screen shots under new topic. I am going to be honest and post every game, not just if Kensei is very good. I can do that for, 1 or 2 weeks maybe, which in my case should be at least 50 matches per week maybe even 70. Kensei is very popular now (wonder why) so I expect at least half of those will be with Kensei. Let's see how Kensei performs and let's try to prove that majority of players do struggle with him although they are pretty good vs other heroes. Of course, this applies to Dominion only.

[Siegfried-Z]

And how many times will same people jump in to defend him?

I speak in my name only, but how do you think someone can struggle with basic game mechanics as you like to say, when at the same time I have no problem beating other Kensei while playing Kensei but I can barely touch him with any other hero? It doesn't make sense.

Also, for Valkris guy and few others, I am going to start little project of mine. I am going to take scoreboard screen shots of every Dominion game where there is at least one Kensei involved and I will post those screen shots under new topic. I am going to be honest and post every game, not just if Kensei is very good. I can do that for, 1 or 2 weeks maybe, which in my case should be at least 50 matches per week maybe even 70. Kensei is very popular now (wonder why) so I expect at least half of those will be with Kensei. Let's see how Kensei performs and let's try to prove that majority of players do struggle with him although they are pretty good vs other heroes. Of course, this applies to Dominion only.

We show up to defend it with argue, even at the beggening giving tips and advices, while on my side i've stop to do it.

While complainers most of the times just say "wow he is so Op, too strong" and often with wrong statements.

TBH not a lot of Kensei are good, why ? Bceause most of them are just doing Zone and Dash like stupids because it's enough against some ppl.

I am myself rep 24 Kensei and without beeing arrogant i can crush others kensei beetween rep 30 and 60 most of the times. But not only with Kensei, with any Char i play as Shaman, or Valk... Kensei is specially very weak against Valk.

I just struggle against him with Glad because of his guard.. but that's a Glad problem.

Kensei is also very weak against Warden, Conq or Cent.

Really i don't understand how people can have problem with Kensei and then not with Warden which is BY FAR stronger now than Kensei.

And you can do your project at Hunting Kensei Score if you like to, it will just show he is strong but not OP.

About very popular pick, well in 4v4 some char char are seen far more as Raider or Warden... LB is also a top dog in 4v4.

In 1v1, he is nothing special... I would pick up Valk without a doubt for Duel.

[Vakris_One]

And how many times will same people jump in to defend him?

Notice how those "same people" always give advice and explain in as much detail as they care to but you never acknowledge the fact that these people are giving advice and explaining. You only focus on your opinion as if it were the God's truth and never even stop to consider that you might be wrong and that your opinion is in fact in the minority.

I mean you pop up in every Kensei thread to share your opinion that he is OP. How can you cast criticism on others for coming in to share their opinions when you do the exact same thing? At least some of us come with the intent to help the person overcome their difficulties with the character. From what I've seen you mostly just come to jump on the hate train every time because it agrees with your subjective opinion.

I speak in my name only, but how do you think someone can struggle with basic game mechanics as you like to say, when at the same time I have no problem beating other Kensei while playing Kensei but I can barely touch him with any other hero? It doesn't make sense.

That's a subjective matter. I can and have beaten good Kensei players while using Warden, Highlander, Aramusha, Shugoki, PK, Orochi and Kensei. So what does this mean? I can't speak for you but for me it means I understand how to read a Kensei but it also means I know how to play those characters well enough to use their kit to my advantage vs a Kensei. If I picked a character I don't know how to play well with I would lose. I would also lose if the enemy Kensei player is simply better than me, no matter what character I played.

Kensei is an easy character to play and stomp noobs with but he is hard to master at higher level. Perhaps you just gell well with Kensei's playstyle or the people you face simply aren't that good against Kensei. Everybody has a particular character that they struggle against even ones who main that character themselves.

Also, for Valkris guy and few others, I am going to start little project of mine. I am going to take scoreboard screen shots of every Dominion game where there is at least one Kensei involved and I will post those screen shots under new topic. I am going to be honest and post every game, not just if Kensei is very good. I can do that for, 1 or 2 weeks maybe, which in my case should be at least 50 matches per week maybe even 70. Kensei is very popular now (wonder why) so I expect at least half of those will be with Kensei. Let's see how Kensei performs and let's try to prove that majority of players do struggle with him although they are pretty good vs other heroes. Of course, this applies to Dominion only.

Go ahead and do what you like but:

- How are you going to prove that the majority of players across the whole playerbase struggle against him? End of match screenshots from 1 single player's perspective isn't going to tell you anything statistically worthwhile for a playerbase that numbers in the thousands.

- How are you going to prove that the majority of players that do struggle against him are pretty good vs other heroes and who those other heroes are?
- Is there a correlation between the heroes people struggle against and Kensei?
- Furthermore how will you prove that Kensei isn't just a bad matchup for them?
- How will you get all this important data from just a collection of end of match screenshots?

- Ultimately how are you going to prove that Kensei being a strong pick in 4v4 (the mode he was purposefully designed to be good in by the devs) automatically means that he is OP? Could it not just as easily mean that he is one of the best heroes for anti-ganks?

- Will you compile data on who the top 3 performers are according to your statistics gathered? Is there a correlation between the top 3 heroes in your study of 4v4 Dominion? Do they have anything in common?

Statistics without any context are just a bunch of numbers on a spreadsheet. You need to find the actual reason why certain heroes are stronger picks in 4v4s. A bunch of K/D numbers in a mode where you can safely scores kills via ganking while making sure you don't die a lot by keeping away from the enemy team isn't going to tell you anything relevant about how balanced a hero is. For example, I can pick a fast runner like PK who also has the hidden from map feat and make sure I die as little as possible while only running around and stealing kills from my teammates in ganks. Lo and behold I'll have the lowest deaths per kills score in the match.

It's your time and you can do with it as you wish. I would recommend you wait for the Season 6 win chart matrix as the devs would have done a much better and much more thorough job of gathering statistics than any player could hope to do. But it's your choice.

[Vrbas1]

He can absolutely be disrupted out of his dodge strike attack if he is caught at the right time, just like all other dodge attacks in the game.

"Caught at the right time" - The window in which he can be disrupted is much tighter than the rest of the cast with dodge attacks, if not entirely awkward due to him being given a lengthy amount of time to delay it; this is my point. You work double time to disrupt Kensei's dodge attack than you would for the other heroes. Add in it being a heavy attack, unlike most, where parry punishes are unsatisfying, heal on execution, and a deceptively wide AoE and you'll begin to quickly see the frustrations many share with how this plays out in real time.

I suspect the window in which to interrupt him is tight because of both the amount of ground he covers along with the awkward looking animation/arc of his sidestep attack. Or it's just a poorly programmed attack whose visual feedback does not reflect what's physically happening on the back end.

[Roseguard_Cpt]

If a Kensei is choosing to spam the dodging side heavy on you, feint a heavy, parry the attack, hit them with a light. Repeat until they stop it. If they dodge and don't attack, GB and heavy. It takes a bit of practice but it's pretty basic mix ups, works against assassins that dodge spam too.

[Siegfried-Z]

"Caught at the right time" - The window in which he can be disrupted is much tighter than the rest of the cast with dodge attacks, if not entirely awkward due to him being given a lengthy amount of time to delay it; this is my point. You work double time to disrupt Kensei's dodge attack than you would for the other heroes. Add in it being a heavy attack, unlike most, where parry punishes are unsatisfying, heal on execution, and a deceptively wide AoE and you'll begin to quickly see the frustrations many share with how this plays out in real time.

I suspect the window in which to interrupt him is tight because of both the amount of ground he covers along with the awkward looking animation/arc of his sidestep attack. Or it's just a poorly programmed attack whose visual feedback does not reflect what's physically happening on the back end.

Well firstly PK and Shaman has heavy side dash too.

Some char with light dash attacks has others options like Punch for Glad, GB for Raider or Kick for Shinobi.

Some has unparryable dash because their are bash as warden or Conq but many others has.

Next MF Char looks half having light dash and half heavy ones.

So, that beeing said, which char remains ? Well Roch and Zerk but their dash attacks have undodgable property.

At the end, only Valk Dash looks unbalance compare to others (didnt even consider Nobu).

Another thing which i find funny is on every Kensei thread, after some put factual argues why Kensei is not Op, at the end the discussion only came back about his Dash attack.

And then we came back at where is the problem having troubles with the slowest and unfeintable dash attacks of the game ?

[Vrbas1]

Another thing which i find funny is on every Kensei thread, after some put factual argues why Kensei is not Op, at the end the discussion only came back about his Dash attack.

And then we came back at where is the problem having troubles with the slowest and unfeintable dash attacks of the game ?

Well, as I have mentioned multiple times along with many others before me, the Kensei is given an absurd amount of latitude on when to execute his attack once he dodges. In essence, he gets a double dodge w/ the added benefit of a heavy attack. Mix all that mess up with his fast lights, above average feint/soft feint game (not as good as Zerk, I'm aware), and hyper armor, you have yourself a frustrating opponent in a 1v1 and infuriating one in group fights.

[Arekonator]

Well, as I have mentioned multiple times along with many others before me, the Kensei is given an absurd amount of latitude on when to execute his attack once he dodges. In essence, he gets a double dodge w/ the added benefit of a heavy attack. Mix all that mess up with his fast lights, above average feint/soft feint game (not as good as Zerk, I'm aware), and hyper armor, you have yourself a frustrating opponent in a 1v1 and infuriating one in group fights.

The extra i-fra,e window was debunked but you decided to ignore it. Its definitelly not double-dodge, so please stop spewing nonsense.
Have you tried to git gud instead?

[Siegfried-Z]

Well, as I have mentioned multiple times along with many others before me, the Kensei is given an absurd amount of latitude on when to execute his attack once he dodges. In essence, he gets a double dodge w/ the added benefit of a heavy attack. Mix all that mess up with his fast lights, above average feint/soft feint game (not as good as Zerk, I'm aware), and hyper armor, you have yourself a frustrating opponent in a 1v1 and infuriating one in group fights.

Still, i almost never miss my parry on his side dash attack.. even delayed it is very telegraphed, just have to be patient.

About his light speed, i don't see any problem.. Side light from neutral are 600ms...only top one is 500ms which is just as warden before rework.
During mix up, well most of time i didn't get hit by his side light softfeint, it is fast but not too much to react to, and i am playing without controller and on PS4... So i gess it is a free parry on PC.

His only strong light is the side one with HA on the UB mix-up, which is still a 500ms hit. And i don't believe 500ms mooves are a problem at the current state of the game.

BUT, yes this is a good mix-up, which we are just saying.

Don't get me (and us i believe) wrong, of course Kensei is an efficient char, specially in 4v4, but he isn't too strong, he is just at a very good position. Efficient without beeing OP because he has strong tools but has to work to use it, you can't put Kensei in the category where many others are which are annoying as Spamy Char (Roch, PK etc) or Char which can just abuse a single moove without difficulties to score DMG (Warlord, Conq).

He is interesting to play with and to play against because it is all about mix-up game.

He is the definition of what every Char should be.

[Vakris_One]

Well, as I have mentioned multiple times along with many others before me, the Kensei is given an absurd amount of latitude on when to execute his attack once he dodges. In essence, he gets a double dodge w/ the added benefit of a heavy attack. Mix all that mess up with his fast lights, above average feint/soft feint game (not as good as Zerk, I'm aware), and hyper armor, you have yourself a frustrating opponent in a 1v1 and infuriating one in group fights.

Okay so, firstly: fast lights? Only his top light is 500ms - the basic minimum speed for something to be considered a "light attack" in my opinion. The rest of his lights are 600ms, i.e. the slowest speed that lights get to be in this game and frankly damn near useless when you consider they give out pretty much a free heavy parry punish to the opponent every time. Easily parryable on reaction at average skill level on PC and even on consoles. The only reason a Kensei can actually land hits with his 600ms lights is because he can soft feint to them at any point in his chains.

Secondly, double dodge? No. Did you look at the clips I linked? As soon as he starts his attack animation he is vulnerable to being hit. That is not a "double dodge" or even close to it. A double dodge is what the Shinobi has. Kensei doesn't even come close to generating double dodge i-frames, he is vulnerable to a hit as soon as he inputs the attack. Characters such as Shaman and PK have heavy dodge attacks and both are faster and less telegraphed than Kensei's one. Characters such as Orochi, Zerker and Shaman can delay their dodge attack startup too so singling Kensei out as the only one who has a heavy and/or can delay his is incorrect.

Does he have more time to delay his? I've never tested it so I don't know. I do know that his delay timing got reduced in an undocumented change in a patch during Season 6. If someone like Freeze can test this and prove that Kensei gets more time to delay his then I would be interested in their findings. Keep in mind however that some of the new Chinese heroes like Tiandi and Jiang Jung can actually cancel (Tiandi & JJ), hard feint (Tiandi) and soft feint (JJ) their dodge attacks. If you have trouble with Kensei's dodge attack then you're in for a wild ride once Marching Fire drops.

Thirdly, being a frustrating opponent to fight does not by default mean he is OP or broken. It generally means he is a bad matchup for you. You can't expect to fight everyone using the same tactics and score wins easily over the entire roster without any stiff opposition. You need to adapt different tactics for different heroes based on what they can do.