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  1. #1

    warden vs orochi

    What is the strategy to kill that bastard in duel? Yesterday it were 10 orochi in 12 fights... He evades any attack and make counter-attack, If i can successfully parry - i can not continue, other than two lights attack. Everything else will be dodgeg and counter-attacked. How do you kill them?
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  2. #2
    no one here? no advice?
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  3. #3
    Hello I will just quote what I've said in a thread (this one here: https://forums.ubi.com/showthread.ph...i-is-stupid-OP) a while back

    Originally Posted by Klingentaenz3r Go to original post
    I see where you are coming from but I cannot agree on that he is "stupidly op". He is fast yes, but as Roland stated it, you can shut his attempts down by blocking. When I am in a 1vX situation I always keep the orochi on the outside. That way you can easily shut down all their attacks because they only come from one direction and you're getting your revenge bar filled up quite quickly. He is nowwhere near Kensei for instance and hence - definitely not S-Tier.

    His stamina consumption is absolutely fine. Whenever I play him I can get OOS quite quickly by a fair amount of actions taken. Not getting OOS stamina is for an Orochi very important. Maybe you encounter a lot of orochis who address that for their character by investing into stam recovery and costs. The tradeoff is then of course that they take a lot of damage once you hit them and as a result die quickly.

    In a 1v1 scenario I also don't have to many troubles dealing with the roaches. Side dodge attacks grant you a light parry punish as well as if you read the reptide attemps. The thing is with the orochi you need to figure out what kind of opponent you have in front of you.


    I paint a few scenarios for you with a most likely reaction and some strategies to go for:

    1. Closequarter combat

    Orochis that stick right in your face tend to resort to light attacks and their power to interrupt the opponent.

    Strats to deal with it:
    • Turtle up and parry what you can (look out for combo finishers for example),
    • Block everything and counter attack with a quick attack right after
    • Attack before they can, break their rythm (orochi lives from having the control over the fight)
    • Dodge and attack after the whiffed first light or dodge attack
    • Utilize your characters hyper armor for trades (you might need to go to mid range to have enough distance to initiate from neutral), with Shugo block top to prevent double lights and go for direct light into headbutt trades for other sides


    If you have an Orochi in front of you that utilizes riptide strike, side dodge attacks and stormrush go from GB attempts after blocking as all of those can be guardbroken on startup and it is likely to use these moves whenever the opponents tends to return a stroke.

    You can also mix in some heavy feints to bait out a reaction and go for a parry right after or for the appropriate response the next time.

    2. Mid-Range

    In mid range fights it is more likely that he utilizes all of his dodge moves since they are not as easily guardbroken as before. However all moves are also more telegraphed and his lights tend to whiff (recovery on that is not the best btw so that 400 ms chain light you only get on a connected initial attack if I recall correctly)

    Strats:
    bait him out to do something
    • and parry punish
    • counter attack
    • dodge (+) attack
    • use your hyper armor for trades


    Throw in occasional lights and also heavies to intercept whatever he is initiating. Especially stormrush can be neatly intercepted by normal attacks. Riptide can also fall victim to light attacks once the orochi does not directly direct to it but just out of habit or on a feint that you threw out beforehand.

    Side note Orochis need space and their mobility to fight effectively. Use that to your advantage.

    If you are playing with a team then go and dispatch yourselves from the orochis in the other team in Xv1 szenario. They don't have good tools to actually deal with a lot of opponents at the same time. Kiai is most likely the only thing besides sharpened blade that can be used well do deal with groups with Kiai being more the option to actually escape (since you are too sqishy) and sharpened blade would be the offensive option but a level 3 feat that is not that often available for use.
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  4. #4
    I am a warden main too and of course you have some mobility issues compared to those assassins such as orochi. It is their thing being able to outmanouver you. Your job is to get them into doing what you want them to do, punish them accordingly and at best break their rythm so that you are the one to intercept and interrupt.

    With the Warden's rework you can also just utilize the charged shoulderbash into top heavy very well it perfectly catches them on a dodge attack reaction upon seeing the SB initiation and trades hits in your favour. If they want to hit you out of it before you were able to charge it, try feinting it into crushing counter (if they attack top) or parry or more simple: dodge into shoulderbash. Always expect an Orochi wanting to counter-attack the moment he is able to move.

    As Orochi's have a kit most revolving around light attacks parry punishes are going to be huge. I hope you are able to hit with a top heavy after a light parry consistantly.

    If you are overwhelmed don't shy from reseting the fight (back dodge and roll).

    If your opponent throws storm rush, keep your guard first on the left (fastest attack) and react upon direction changes with a simple block.
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  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Klingentaenz3r Go to original post
    I am a warden main too and of course you have some mobility issues compared to those assassins such as orochi. It is their thing being able to outmanouver you. Your job is to get them into doing what you want them to do, punish them accordingly and at best break their rythm so that you are the one to intercept and interrupt.

    With the Warden's rework you can also just utilize the charged shoulderbash into top heavy very well it perfectly catches them on a dodge attack reaction upon seeing the SB initiation and trades hits in your favour. If they want to hit you out of it before you were able to charge it, try feinting it into crushing counter (if they attack top) or parry or more simple: dodge into shoulderbash. Always expect an Orochi wanting to counter-attack the moment he is able to move.

    As Orochi's have a kit most revolving around light attacks parry punishes are going to be huge. I hope you are able to hit with a top heavy after a light parry consistantly.

    If you are overwhelmed don't shy from reseting the fight (back dodge and roll).

    If your opponent throws storm rush, keep your guard first on the left (fastest attack) and react upon direction changes with a simple block.
    Thanks. i'll try some of it. But anyway, orochi is too hard in duels.He is too fast to react most of the time. Much more than other enemies. And what to do, if does not atacking? Wait in defence, becouse my atacks is useles against him?
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  6. #6
    Shoulderbash. Shoulderbash cancel into parry, Shoulderbash charged into trade(if he doesn't react: cancel). Feint into parry. Feint into zone (is always your best friend). If you're close: Feint into GB /Throw an emote into GB.

    Orochi is really not that hard to deal with. Try using the practice mode to get more used to him.

    oh and btw the most easiest way to punish storm rush is just throwing out a light to interrupt him before he can actually throw his attack. He is very vulnerable before reaching the opponent.
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  7. #7
    i'v tryed, it became little more better in this matchup, but not much. If you loose pretty fast light, you can't physically react to block others, Trying to dodge back not working. Idea with fints is intresting, but ONLY if you control the fight. when orochi spaming lights from different directions it is no time for that tricks. Or i can not do them so fast, anyway. But i can against other heroes more or less. But not against that broken orochi.Really hate that damn hero.
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  8. #8
    Are you playing with mouse+kb or with a controller? If it is m+kb you might wanna lower your sensitivity a lot. Maybe you overreact and change your block stances unintentionally due to slight movements. Could be the same with controller, sure, but less likely. there is a deadzone option however for that ingame. You could try tweak it a little.

    It is really not hard to shut down an orochi if you just focus on blocking. Always choose one side you stick with to block (as Warden it is always best to block top to have access to crushing counter strike) and then block the other directions when needed.Since Orochi's double top light comes from that direction you have that threat covered right away as well. And don't make the mistake to press parry when you are not really sure if you wanna parry this way you will just sabotage yourself by opening up at the very last second although you could have just blocked.

    Also, watch your stamina in OOS (out of stamina mode) light attack chains are not interrupted by a normal block, so try to stay out of it if a full light chain is too overwhelming for you.

    Lastly, you could try and share some clips of your performance, that would help us more to evaluate what mistakes you tend to do.
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  9. #9
    Here is some video records about week ago or more. When i'v read about "block not parry" - it does not become much better. I will record some more later.
    Spoiler:  Show



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  10. #10
    thx for the clips!

    I start with the warden clips


    second vid:

    Awesome (epic) stormrush parry I give you that. You are looking really good in the beginning of the clip as a Warden.

    Very good to go for the guardbreak after your double side light. You triggered a flight reaction in him with your punishment and capitalized on it with a guardbreak to punish his dodge attempt. Note sometimes going for a sideheavy finisher is also a good option to catch back dodgers but also those that tend to attack after a double side light just to return some fire or also against those who like to throw a guard break after an exchange.

    The second heavy however after the GB punish should have been canceled as it is still to be expected that the orochi wants to get away or tries to throw in a side dodge attack. You eat his chained combo then. You were overwhelmed in that situation. That can happen. It is ok. I see how you struggle to keep up with the guard and often react to late or just go for reads. Remind yourself more to calm down and at least focus on where the last hit comes from.

    Then, a big mistake: You block your opponent, he rolls away & gets OOS...and you don't capitalize on it. You have to immediately get in your opponent's face in a situation like that. You're missing out on a huge chance to get your max punishes. You even have a great tool now with valiant breakthrough which could have helped you to punish his roll right away and at least close the gap. Alternatively when the opponent is already in distance, unlock and go for either running attack, lock on valiant breakthrough, zone attack or guard break if you figure your opponent might be dodge happy in that situation.

    Next thing you feint a heavy and actually bait a reaction. Not sure if it was intentional of the orochi but he whiffs which causes to destroy your rythm. However I see another point worth mentioning and that is your uncertain and slow reaction towards his reaction (side dodge attack): With orochi as your nemesis you should have noticed by now that his side dodge attack always comes from the side he is dodging into. Therefore it is really easy to defend against that move and prepare for a parry. Make it a habit to put your guard to the side the orochi is dodging right away. That will shield you and prepare you for a parry even before that actual attack is initiated.

    Not sure what happens after that as you switch to the other guard side and attack with a heavy it seems...? Maybe a late parry response but also a subtle unconsious hand movement?

    heavy parry into punish - ok. Intiating shoulderbash - ok, but again. The opponent showed from the start that he likes to dodge more so it is more advisable to cancel and parry punish or do a max charged bash.


    Valiant breakthrough. It hits surprisingly (don't go top guard beforehand as it prepares the opponent that an attack might come top next) but you don't follow up. Go at least for the comboed side heavy. Cancel that one again maybe into gb or into your zone attack. Same can be done with the top unblockable which also tracks quite well if the opponent likes to back dodge.

    In this next scene we can see that you swap your guard too much. Have just one side passively guarded and prepare to actively block the over ones. You get caught up and cannot follow because your rythm is all broken. You try to catch up but suddenly a guard swap to the right side. This is either again due a panic guess or simply that your sensitivity is too high and your mouse reacts to fast to subtle movements. Since you have a 100 ms delay between guardswaps you can see why you CANNOT switch instantly to one side and then to the other.


    Third vid:

    Good start. Same notes on valiant breakthrough concerning feinting the heavy, but good fight (again nice gb after double side lights) until 0:17. Short question: do you try to block that first light attack he throws there? it seems like you want to react to it. If that is the case: Calm down. He parried you just a moment ago, he gets a light guaranteed so... let him have it, you can put your block somewhere else as it is more likely that he will swap the guard somewhere else. From there you can put your block wherever the next attack goes.

    0:18: You react fast enough but it goes the wrong way. I say it is again an uncontrolled movement of your mouse and then it takes too much time to get to top again.


    0:22: You just whiffed your double light input but non the less you try to throw out something right after even though the orochi is completely in your face: Why? He is quick. He is ready to attack, you on the other hand are either in recovery or only able to throw a heavy. PLUS as a static guard hero your opponent always knows where your guard is. So naturally he attacks the opposite direction to intercept and punish your whiff. You should have expected that. At this point your hero almost stands there with his pants down and does not deal a threat. Especially after he realized that you had issues shutting his 3 light chain down. So of course he would reuse it. At 0:25 you see a guardswap to top again even though there was no attack indicator. Then the guard goes back as if you corrected your grip for a second.

    first vid:

    Similar to the other videos. In the first scene it seems to me that you are actively blocking top and not passively and therefore way to late once the attacks come out. The difference is when blocking actively you hold at that moment the guard up and hence are busy doing so with your mouse whilst passively the mouse/stick is not moving at all and in a neutral position. As conq you could use all block more. Especially effective should be heavy into all block cancel into shieldbash when the opponent is blocking your chains as well as a neutral start to bait out a dodge attack into all block into unblockable punish. That would have turned the last situations in your favor.

    Verdict:

    The orochi does not seem to be the problem. The issue seems for the most part to be your unclean way of going from one block to the other and of course sometimes you just don't expect you opponents next move. Also, stay aware what you display for your opponent. If your guard is passive on one side they have to attack one of the other two usually.

    Have you ever tried using a controller btw? For me this helped tremendiously to get a good and dependable guard. With a mouse I tend to make more mistakes.
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