Junior Member
It's time to stop hating on shamans while letting other assassins have better damage and combos. There are three things that need to be addressed.
The first being that shaman's double light attack damage is by far the most pathetic out of any assassin in terms of damage. With no gear stats, two light attacks in the same direction do 15 damage! Meanwhile every other assassin has bonuses that make them do more damage or have superior technique:
- Gladiator does 15 with one light and has long reach for compensation
- Berserker does 15 with one light axe hit (even though shaman attacks with an axe herself) and has uninterruptible combos
- Peacekeeper does 13 initially, but because she has good chains. She can switch directions with lights extremely fast and can get a second light for 15. (shaman can't switch light directions fast)
- Orochi does 15 with one attack, not including the guaranteed second top light if the first hits, making the damage 21
- Shinobi is the worst, with fast light attacks where if the first light hits, (14 damage) then the second hits guaranteed with 10 damage, making it 24 damage with SICKLES.
Shaman definitely needs a light attack buff as to match the other assassins with double hits.
Next I want to address Predator's Mercy. It is absolutely infuriating that Predator's Mercy, the highest damage dealing attack, can not only be interrupted by opponents, but also your own teammates. The animation takes almost 3 seconds to actually 'bite', rather than being instantaneous. Shaman needs interruptible on the bite as to stand a better chance against multiple opponents and against friendlies seeking to stop the animation. This I would say is the most important of the three I am suggesting.
Lastly, would be Raven's Bile. Shaman relies largely on bleed damage, but having Raven's Bile only on the first heavy attack or at the end of a chain prevents more fluid combat with shaman. Although you can still perform a bleeding hit after a deflect or zone attack, I think shaman should be able to perform Raven's Bile after any heavy attack, much like Peacekeeper's ability to dagger feint at a heavy startup. This is the least concerning of the three, but would definitely be a great addition for her combat style
Member
As much as I sympathize with you, I have to disagree on almost all of your points here.
The fact that the bite can be interrupted is what makes it balanced. Compare it to shugoki's hug, which is a similar move. Both do damage and heal the user if it lands. HOWEVER, Shugoki's takes longer to wind up, HURTS him if he misses (why??), and removes his hyper armor as well. If it lands though, he can only be interrupted by enemies, not allies.
Shaman's bite on the other hand, is only useable while the opponent is bleeding (by any source, including fire), but is feintable, faster than shugoki's hug, does similar damage and healing, AND can be used multiple times if she misses, but is interrupted by both allies and enemies attacking the target. Given that it is significantly easier to land than Shugoki's hug, being interrupted by careless teammates is a small tradeoff. Try using shugoki's hug on anyone in a 1v1. It won't work.
Not only this, but it's a decent disable on an ASSASSIN.
Now the double lights thing I can sorta agree with. Not sure why there's so much discrepancy between them but I would have to say it's because no other assassin has an unblockable mixup after a double light. Being able to use the unblockable side heavy out of the double light provides shaman with a large number of options for attack which no other assassin has access to.
And the soft feint into bleed? It's perfectly fine. Most people won't be able to parry it on reaction since you can choose the direction. Just use your huge number of mixups more often and you won't get punished for using this too much.
Any questions?
Member
I understand that people complain about Predator's mercy... when they think it is strong!
Seriously dude?! Of course it is interuptible! It is like heavy attacks for everybody, just don't do it when you are surrounded! Sorry to be harsh but either you are dishonest or you need to see further than the tip of your nose and understand that shaman is very strong.. People always want more and moooooore for their main..
Using your logic, people would say zerk have hyper armor on many attacks so glad should as well. Or shaman can drain health so orochi should too: The way you compare her with the others assassins is so biased..
Shaman have a lot of soft faints, openers, can drain health and stamina, jump miles away, have fast attacks.. Overall she has a very good kit and may be the most versatile hero in the game. Sorry but i completly disagree with you.
Junior Member
You must be fantastically blind. I just listed all the ways shaman is inferior in light attacks and you still can't see it. How am biased if I laid out the damage numbers right in front of you and I fairly assessed how each assassin works. Let's take peacekeeper for example: I said she can switch lights fast and gets second light for 15. Once again, shaman switches directions very slowly so she can't compensate for the low damage. I can't possibly understand how you do not see this as a downside for shaman. You are completely fine that peacekeeper can do almost 30 damage with 2 lights while shaman does 15??
It's not like I was asking for a heavy attack buff or anything outrageous. And no, its's stupid to say gladiator should have hyper armor because berserker does. You must be a complete idiot to not see that gladiator has a range advantage over assasins so there would be no point of having hyper armor. So going "by my logic" is a completely false statement. As for the soft feints, guess what? Others have that! Not to mention that assasin's who can't soft feint have their own bonuses. Berserker has uninterruptible on faint attacks, which I don't see anyone complaining about. Shinobi is just a mess with their range, feint speed, and agility, etc. Drain stamina? That only works on the damn bite which you seem to have a problem with. "Jump miles away"? You know that her range got nerfed a long time ago right? Many assassin's have leaping forward attacks too so I have no idea what you are complaining about.
Aside from that, If you actually played shaman, which sounds like you don't, you know how annoying it is to be interrupted by a teammate, but sure I apparently "want more and mooooore for my main". FYI, shaman isn't my main, it's just common sense that shaman should have interruptible on Predators Mercy considering the nature of the attack. She uses an axe, just like berserk, yet her two hits amount to berserkers one. How is it greedy to ask a light buff? How is everyone accepting damage numbers from peacekeeper and shinboi especially, and then complain about shaman?
In summation, I don't see how having uninterruptible on Predator's Mercy is something bad. I didn't ask for a damage increase for it, but merely something to stop other players from interfering with a 'bite' that apperently takes time to actually register. So no, I am not pushing my 'main'. I just think it's not fair for shaman players who are trying to have fun constantly having their bite being interrupted by teammates.
Member
Here comes the list!
"I just listed all the ways shaman is inferior in light attacks and you still can't see it" i never denied it.
""So going "by my logic" is a completely false statement" it was a sophism to illustarate the idea. You think that if some have something (≈15 light damage) so everybody should. But i think her weak light is justified by the rest of her kit.
"Berserker has uninterruptible on faint attacks, which I don't see anyone complaining about." to me it is a broblem and make him too impredictible and strong.
"Many assassin's have leaping forward attacks too so I have no idea what you are complaining about." i'm not complaining, i'm just "listing" her very complete kit.
"You are completely fine that peacekeeper can do almost 30 damage with 2 lights while shaman does 15?" yes because the shaman's kit is better that the PK's.
"Drain stamina? That only works on the damn bite which you seem to have a problem with" I don't have any problem with it, but it the proof that, again, she have a good kit with specificities others don't have.
"shaman isn't my main" ok i should have say "heros people play". People should appreciate fairness, i play conq and to me the upcoming forward SB nerf is a good thing.
"the gladiator has a range advantage over assasins" so you understand that he has some strenghts that others assassins haven't. Like shaman have strenghts that other assassins haven't. And i think her weak light is a fair compensation.
How to say it.. The most important part of balance is not the damage points on one specific hit but the total kit and how it matches with other's.. Every character have his strenghts who jutifies his weakneses (when it is well done). I want to say be happy that she has an attack like Predator's mercy cause (if i'm right) she is the only one with shugo who have something like this. Clearly, asking for it to be ininterruptible is too much..
The shaman is so versatile man, for exemple could you tell me something that orochi have that shaman don't? (Apart from light damage and speed of course) Cause i can give you a **** ton of tools that she has over him.
Senior Member
The shaman is literally the improved version of the pk, it's funny that there is still something in her kit that a shaman player envies from her (trust me, you never land those second lights). Try to play the pk for a few matches, it's basically a shaman without any of the useful tools. For example, her dagger cancel always comes from the top, so she never lands those, and she doesn't have any kind of unblockable. Btw, you also have better parry punishes, so the counterattacker part of the pk is ******** too. The dodge attacks also take an hour to land, and they aren't feintable (nor come with choosable direction).
The bite is overpowered the way it is, 50 damage, 500 ms, tracking, selfheal-fullstam heal and the ability to do it again on miss is quite broken enough already. If it would have HA, the character would lose the last bit of intelligence requirement, she could always go for it the moment a bleed lands. It should deal 25-30 damage at most, without the stamina regen, then a HA would be somewhat justified (from the part she is already on the opponent of course, not during the fly part).
While the conq, the warden and the zerk are stronger, you still play one of the strongest characters, who iis especially good in 4v4 (if you have idiots for team mates stupid enough to hit you out, they will ruin your efforts anyway, no matter what you play and how, you either have to endure them, choose team mates you trust or play 1v1, and you obviously shouldn't use it when surrounded with enemies).
Junior Member
I like how the solution Roland gave me was basically find better teammates. Real useful info pal. If it makes you feel any better, I would welcome lower damage on the bite if it meant getting interruptible, but hey that's just me. You talk about shaman having better parry punishes, yet she can't do an immediate light counter like berserker or shinobi so i have no idea what you're talking about. If i have to reiterate gain, the tracking for shaman got nerfed a while back, including her jumping range, so bringing that up is a moot point. As for stamina regen, I can understand that argument and would say that maybe half or less stamina regen would work as compensation for uninterruptible.
As for Corentin, let's further break down the criticisms you have for me.
"'Berserker has uninterruptible on faint attacks, which I don't see anyone complaining about.' to me it is a broblem and make him too impredictible and strong." I don't know where you're getting that info from unless you're talking about yourself.
"'You are completely fine that peacekeeper can do almost 30 damage with 2 lights while shaman does 15?' yes because the shaman's kit is better that the PK's." That's unacceptable unless shaman is some god tier character, which she isn't. It's actually pretty ironic that shaman relies on bleed damage yet PK has a better moveset based on bleed damage than shaman does.
"'Drain stamina? That only works on the damn bite which you seem to have a problem with' I don't have any problem with it, but it the proof that, again, she have a good kit with specificities others don't have." Then why bring it up if you know the only way to drain stamina is the bite itself, when it's obvious how ineffective it is when going up against more than one person.
I see that you didn't have any counterargument against the jumping ability of shaman since i mentioned that it got nerfed.
As for the character being a main, sure ,I understand your argument and see it from that perspective, yet you know that landing the bite on anyone who isn't a novice is almost damn near impossible. Look at any 1v1 high reputation gameplay between a shaman and any other character and i guarantee you that the bite is practically non-existent because it is so hard to make someone bleed and then land on someone who is actually good. It essentially comes down to light and heavy attack damage for shaman, hence the necessity to increase her lights since they're so weak. Thus the shaman now can't use her bite effectively on 1v1s or against multiple attackers. Having uninterruptible would help in both situations, allowing for better landing in 1v1s and better defense against multiple attackers. So, no matter how much you hate it, it's not as strong as you, or everyone else for that matter, think it is. I still firmly believe that shaman lights need to be increased slightly and Predator's Mercy needs uninterruptible, even at the cost of up to 10 damage nerf I would say.
Oh and since I haven't gotten anyone to respond to this, also have Raven's Bile on any heavy rather than finishers or startups.
Member
Senior Member
Maybe it was patched out, but as far as I know, her zone attack's first two hits are guaranteed on a heavy parry for 25 damage, and the heavy is on a light parry. The shaman heavy, if I am correct, deals 27 damage. If we take the avarege, that's 26 (the pk gets a zone first hit for 15 or a light for 13, and a heavy+deep gouge for 30, that's avarege is either 22,5 or 21,5). If a shaman guardbreaks an exhausted opponent, she gets the wildcat or whatever the jump called after the throw, then the unblockable, for about 55 damage (and that's not even the best punish if I am correct, but most go for that), the pk gets 50 damage after the two stab+heavy. If the shaman parries an already exhausted opponent, she will get at least a two heavies off for 67 damage, the pk either gets a light-heavy-deep gouge for 48, or two heavies+deep gouge for 55. And the shaman gets the bite on almost anything if the opponent is bleeding for 50 damage. Their deflects deal about the same damage (the pk deals 20 instant+15 bleed, the shaman deals 18 instant+16 bleed). It's a fact that the shaman has better punishes than the pk (she is quite avarege on punishes, it's mostly about the pk being useless).
I would be fine with a hyperarmor for less damage if it would make the bite uninterruptible during process (though I am sure it would hurt her too, she would eat the full damage from multiple attacks from multiple opponents during the bite without a chance to interrupt it and defend herself). But the skewer of the gladiator is interrupted too, the three stab of the pk and the shinobi sickle rain is interrupted too, the cent cutscene is interrupted by any hit for any of the parties, the optimal ground punishes can be interrupted, so it's a quite basic thing in the game in 4v4.
I don't know the actual speed and tracking of the bite, but I fail to dodge it even if I know it's coming and dodge right at the startup (it's much worse if the shaman is already in the face of the opponent, I guess you should attack then, but if she parries you, she will bite you anyway). And it's quite easy to land that in 1v1, just land a bleed, go into the unblockable finisher, guardbreak softfeint, and there you go (that's basically a 50/50).
Okay, I always ask this from everyone who either thinks the pk is broken or the shaman is weak: name one thing that the pk has and the shaman has not? Basically the same characters with bleed, dagger cancels, jump attacks, they are close to each other with basic damage, but the shaman has obvious extras. I failed to find anything the pk has over the shaman. Well, she has a bit faster zone for much more stamina and much less damage with light properties if the enemy parries it, stacking bleed which isn't a thing since she never lands those against competent players and with the low stamina she has, the ability to dodge out from any of the heavies and cancel any of the heavies into bleed which is ok but quite insignificant, and that's it, the shaman has everything else's better version the pk has. And I assure you, the second lights never land, they are barely parried I give you that, but almost everyone blocks it, thorwing out the second light doesn't really worth the effort. If you think I am wrong, please list the things in the pk's kit that makes her kit better.
Junior Member
Corentin, if that were the case, everyone would be complaining about every character slow abilities. That sounds like an excuse and looks like you can't come up with any counter arguments, but sure, good luck pal.
Roland, you want something PK is better at? Bleed abilities, just like I slightly mentioned in the last post. PK can cause massive bleed build up on guardbreak. Shaman can't unless you waste a heavy opener in order to dagger hit, not mention the actual dagger itself does minuscule damage and only one stack of bleed damage. Just one stack dissipates very quickly, which pretty much means you either bite in a few seconds or they will stop bleeding, giving the opponent an obvious sign to just start backpedaling in anticipation of a bite until bleed wears off. PK can bleed dagger hit feint on any heavy, granted since the last patch it can only be in one direction. I'm not sure if PK gets a guaranteed bleed dagger hit after a successful heavy lands, but it's fast enough that it's worth mentioning. Once again, Shaman can only dagger hit at a heavy opener or chain finisher, and dagger hits do minuscule damage. Making someone else bleed with shaman essentially comes down to trying to deflect them, as her other means of bleed tactics are not enough. The zone dagger feint is slower than PK to the point people can parry it, the heavy opener dagger feint has no reach like PK does, as PK jabs forward, while Shaman jabs at a shorter reach. Lastly, the dagger hit at the end of a chain is far too unreliable and people don't often get a chance to even finish a chain as a shaman as the heavy is too slow and you can't dagger feint in the middle of the chain. Anything else?
