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I like the current rework but there are some bugs with him.
The ones I have found.
- His new dash heavy that can go mach 5 can hit people a floor above him.
- His new unblockable top heavy has a chance not showing up at all if your not targeting him. I have seen it with my own bloody eyes. You see the animation start. It shows the red unblockable. Then it just stops showing that indicator half way through the attack. Making it near impossible to actually parry correctly.
Senior Member
This commited thing again... its like... if my hero cant hes shouldnt either... he should be able to cancel it because the vortex isnt guaranteed anymore... geez. Further more, warden is still lacks in options. He strongly needs to be able to cancel top ueavy (unblockable or not) into a single sight light attack thats a chain starter. Right now the only thing we can do is threatten someone with that top unblockable wich is AGAIN easy to parry because its the only thing you need to pay attention, this and gb...Originally Posted by LordKracen Go to original post
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Maybe he used a feint.Originally Posted by The_Lord_Shrek Go to original post
Senior Member
re: the above - just put another rep through warden (now rep 52), and I agree 100% with both the original & your complaints - however two wrongs dont make a right. Options are needed (suggestions below) & shoulderbash needs to be a commit. Its a crutch move Im seeing everywhere - its way too safe with the cancel, nets up to 40 guaranteed damage and can be used on reaction (charge it - if they dodge then punish, if they don't then cancel. Rinse, repeat). It's also getting spammed like crazy in dominion as its safe to snipe out enemy heroes when they are being ganked, even in revenge (charge and look for an opening, if no opening cancel and start charging again...)Originally Posted by Gemoroda Go to original post
Few suggestions after another rep on warden & reading all the comments above (rather than my previous wall of text/whinging)
BUFFS
Unblockable Attack - The problem is that before the indicator even has a chance to show you're screaming the attack louder than a pokemon trainer - the moment warden flashes that unblockable it broadcasts 'this is a slow top heavy attack that has no followup & no options other than canceling during startup, take your time'
1) Add a softfeint side light out of unblockable, if looking to do on the cheap use the animation of the non-guranteed version of a second side light attack with some tweaked speed/damage - this gives a single quick hit & something else for the opponent to think about.
OR
2) Make the second side heavies unblockable @ 25 damage to give a varied option that forces the opponent to actually watch you and not just go into autopilot when you begin an unblockable. Even if you just added 'wardens bluff' as a class feature - the second side heavies show the unblockable orange but are actually blockable, maybe with a little extra chip damage thrown in. Just something, anything to delay recognition of the top heavy beyond instant.
Dash Attack
Make it a light input or make it feintable, still finding it gets in the way on the heavy button. I've adapted to this now & I can play around it, but it feels clunky. To be honest this move feels like it should be coming out of the very startup of charging a shoulder bash rather than a straight dash (kinda like highlander kick into grab). Maybe even also out of the unblockable top heavy. The distance this goes is very odd, however not sure on nerfing it without doing something else to the move first as thats really its only standout feature at the moment, it tracks forwards faster than people can back peddle (and boy can some characters back peddle fast)
Side Lights
Side light damage needs a buff, 18 damage over two attacks is little more than a tickle. Perhaps consider splitting bash light attacks from normal light attacks similar to warlord headbutt so a 'flat footed' light isn't being punished for the sake of balancing out the guaranteed 'bash' light or vice versa.
NERFS
Max Damage
New Out of Stamina max punish (dash attack into top heavy) needs to be amended/fixed, 40 damage is plenty while 60 damage off a guardbreak isn't justified - this level of punish was taken from beserker & raider for a reason, it doesn't make for a fun game. If players are terrified of going OOS then they stop taking any risks, meaning turtle time
Shoulder Bash
As above force commit on charged shoulder bash past a certain charging point. If you overcharge in anticipation of baiting a dodge & the opponent doesn't dodge you are in some trouble & must go through with the attack (you can very the timing still, but your locked into performing a bash). If they do dodge you still get your guaranteed damage.
Senior Member
That would be because you are attacked by a quicker attack in the meantime and hence the indicator of the unblockable disappears. Instead the other one appears as the current threat so that you can defend against that. Very confusing stuff, I know.Originally Posted by The_Lord_Shrek Go to original post
Senior Member
What are you talking about? It is pretty much in line with others. Orochi for example has 70, Kensei has 62, Nobushi 72, Warden's max OOS punish on a throw is btw 70 which is harder to do (the 60 is much easier and more reliable). Raider on a sidenote has as well a whopping 68 punish out of a GB (95 max while being very close to a wall included and being in top stance - a bit tricky). Berserker gets 68 as well.Originally Posted by Sweaty_Sock Go to original post
There is NO ONE that deals only 40 dmg! The lower end of the spectrum seems to be shinobi on OOS throws and 45 dmg.
Senior Member
You nailed it, im not saying remove the heavy heavy max punish (to do that you'd need to return guard stance to a player once they take any form of hit, something i'd like to see particularly in Dominion but this is a warden specific feedback not game mechanics feedback)
Max punishes are generally situational and run the risk of failing with incorrect spacing - they generally need to parry an OOS opponent or GB with situational/correct wall spacing & timing to pull off. With this tool Warden can 60 damage from any OOS throw, and has a kit built around forcing an opponent to dodge (which can be feinted into GB)... duels aside this thing is a 'stacks on' mechanic that goes flying around in dominion on any takedown
I just think it would be better if the dash forward had some 'grounded opponent' variant @ 40 damage that didn't chain (similar to new valk chain end or the cents leap). If you can pull max punish like the rest of the crew then you can take that option if you'd prefer, and use skill to pull it off (or mess it up)
The 60 is just too easy/consistent
Senior Member
But Sweaty, we are talking already about the max punishes for OOS throws WITHOUT a wall.
All examples of mine are just that. Now look at the numbers and see for yourself if a 40 dmg punish for Warden alone is justified. All those other examples are not hard to pull off and not very situational (quite reliable as you said). You are more refering apparently for Max OOS Punishes after Parry or after a throw when you are near (situational) a wall. Those look different again for most classes. And yes, these are sometimes a bit more tricky to pull off.
An additional point: What about Shaman, she can pretty much do the same as well with wildcat's rage but for 69 dmg? Also, if you really want to go for the Max Punish OOS throw without a wall (again this is 70) you run a huge risk screwing it up and ending up with 40 dmg at most since you have to be in the right stance before the throw and hit the diagonal walking direction in it's sweet spot to perform it and NOT throw the opponent behind you (happens quite often).
If you happen to say the 60 is too easy (I kinda agree that it is easy to get) then I have to say that the alternative on the other hand is atm a little too hard to get compared to others.
Senior Member
This. The examples were more intended to show how many play-styles evolved (and revolved) around easy to pull off high damage moves (was more thinking old zerk turtle, parry, gb, wallsplat, top heavy. Or its advanced version - turtle, deflect, gb, wallsplat, top heavy. The side into top OOS throw was also excessive so I did leave it open ended, probably diluted my point more than helped it).Originally Posted by Klingentaenz3r Go to original post
Basically I meant its far, far, far to easy, and knowing your opponent has access to very easy to perform, low risk/high reward moves forces you to be careful, as a single mistake will out-damage several successful risk taking engages. This forces the game to slow right down and is a driving cause of turtleing
The 60 is pretty much guaranteed, and players are already spamming it - I can't help but feel its an unhealthy step for the overall state of the game
Member
Yeah, hyper-amor AND unblockable... +1 to be be a commitmentOriginally Posted by LordKracen Go to original post
