Ghost Mode: excessive isn’t it? | Forums

[P0B2009]

I suppose it'd be logical that missions remain accomplished while character progression is lost.

So Yuri and Polito, once killed in a Ghost mode saveslot, are defeated for good until that saveslot is deleted.

But if you die then that specific soldier has fallen along with whatever they have learned or collected, and another must rise to take their place.

Yes, or perhaps the guns/attachments remain collected but XP and skills are reset. And perhaps buchones remain crossed off once defeated.

[MikeWeeks]

I suppose it'd be logical that missions remain accomplished while character progression is lost.

So Yuri and Polito, once killed in a Ghost mode saveslot, are defeated for good until that saveslot is deleted.

But if you die then that specific soldier has fallen along with whatever they have learned or collected, and another must rise to take their place.

That makes a lot of sense. A new team must be brought in, to continue from what the previous team accomplished as it relates to taking down the cartel.

[AI BLUEFOX]

I don't think you can dilute "Permadeath", it's an all or nothing concept by definition and should stay in the game as an option.

The issue is that it is tied to the gameplay parameters (secondary weapon, weapon selection, magazine reload etc) that most attracts the very same set of players that most want NG+. Some of us don't like collecting, don't like going to find weapon crates, don't like XP and skill trees etc. As far as I can tell there is a significant correlation between the players that want the more milsim like features of Ghost Mode and those that want NG+, so combining Ghost Mode and permadeath is mis-reading what the community really wants.

Ghost mode should come with NG+ and permadeath just be an option.

[MikeWeeks]

I don't think you can dilute "Permadeath", it's an all or nothing concept by definition and should stay in the game as an option. ... .

Naturally the key here is that "perma death" (however it's coded/defined) is an option for the player to select.

[RedCeII]

Dying in Ghost Mode should reformat your harddrive.

[StuningONE]

It's 3rd time I lost ghost mode because of game crash. the last one right when my teammate reviving me. what a shame!!!!!!

[Kane_sg]

One thing we've made sure to pass to the team is that players would like some of these Ghost Mode features to be separate from permadeath gameplay. I've also seen people mention a limited lives system instead of one-life permadeath.

This is the first time I've personally seen the idea of retaining progress between lives or some sort of progression system that persists through all Ghost Mode runs. Would you guys be interested in this?

The point of Ghost Mode itself is to see how far you can go, no? That's the point of the mode which is the only set of thing different from main campaign. If we swap the example, let's say we have Main Campaign and Ghost Mode and then you guys changed the rule in Main Campaign to have permadeath, option or not. Then what's the difference anymore? It's diluting the distinction.

So in this case, if you really want to keep a retaining progress, you guys gotta make sure that it's something that's too long/too much to achieve, but also doesn't have a huge effect of difference than starting over from 0, which is the punishment of Ghost Mode if you die.

For that, I would suggest to retain Level and its corresponding Skill Point rewards stored unassigned, especially during Tier One.

Why Level/Tier and Skill Point?
Level/Tier and Skill Point plays a major factor in your character development and they are long and draggy journey, but Level/Tier and Skill Point doesn't automatically make you a better player. So when you died, you will start over with your character from previous Level or Tier achieved and Skill Points ready to be assigned as soon as you got the sufficient supplies. Re-developing character skillset will take time because of having to get Supplies back. But at least it's not about re-Level and re-Tier your character all over again which I'm damn sure you guys know that your content isn't even enough to supply Tier One Points.

Secondly, I would suggest Gun Attachments. Why is that?
Conceptually the same as Level/Tier and Skill Points. Collecting Gun Attachments is a long, draggy journey. It's scattered everywhere. But Gun Attachments alone doesn't make you automatically a better player.

I'm personally a progressive kind of player. That means I dislike the idea of redoing/restarting something. I can respect the decision of Ghost Mode because I have Main Campaign where my need belongs to. But your game is too long (and draggy) for restarting everything due to multiple death factors that mostly clumsy, hence an adjustment to certainly need to be made without diluting the purpose of Ghost Mode, especially when Ghost Mode is largely the same as Main Campaign to begin with.

In addition, I have read that you won't get rewarded Prestige Credits you have previously attained after a KIA restart. I wonder, among all the progress that could have been carried over, you chose Prestige Credits reward. You just killed the fire that can spark people's attention to play and keep replaying Ghost Mode. Hence I think Prestige Credits should be regenerated as a reward.

Other than that, you guys also need to deal with Ghost Mode grievers. I expected that to happen and I'm telling you seriously now, your game is great to be played with good random people. But the number of good random people has been decreased. With Friendly Fire, you are inviting abusive people in. You better stop it quick before they are infested and clogs your Ghost Mode co-op usability. The Division Dark Zone and Dark Souls Invasion are beyond repair. They are full of people that manipulates themselves to jump over the system for the sole reason of grieving and then telling those who don't like getting grieved to get out of the game. Again, stop this, be quick.

I don't know how. But make sure it's not becoming a bigger double-edged sword that will be abused even worse. I would start by making Friendly Fire as a Toggle option in Ghost Mode no matter how much I'm against the Toggle idea right now.

[Kean_1]

To be brutally honest, my concern isn't for Ghost Mode or permadeath at this point. The only thing I really care about are the other features we have requested such as lone wolf, one primary, friendly fire and ammo management. Port those options over to the core game as most wanted them to be anyway and GM can be whatever folks want it to be that are interested in such things.

The issue folks like me have is that these other requested features have been locked behind a new mode with permadeath as its backbone. As such, the gesture feels somewhat empty since players who don't particularly care for PD are now forced to play with it.

I honestly don't see a problem with making these things options in the main game as most originally wanted in the first place.

[Rivverrabbit]

While it is true that lots of rogue-like games have mechanics for retaining some form of progress when you die, I don't think there's anyway to incorporate them into GRW that doesn't require a major overhaul. This is, simply, because GRW was *not* built or designed with permadeath in mind, and it certainly wasn't optimized for it. Far better to spend much less time and fewer resources on just moving the features that much of the community requested as options (single primary, ammo changes, friendly fire) to the campaign. Why they were forcibly attached to *only* Ghost Mode is, frankly, baffling -- especially when the lone wolf option IS available in the campaign. That these highly requested features are locked to the permadeath mode is as nonsensical as if you had, for example, locked squad customization to Ghost Mode as well.

Now, all of that said, I want to clarify my first point by detailing what I think would be necessary to actually make the concept of permadeath palatable in GRW. Which is to say, you don't play as Nomad, you play instead as a team of ghosts, all with their own unique personalities or traits or physical appearances (with clothing customization left up to the player). And any time one of them dies, they, along with any earned experience points or unlocked skills, are gone for good.

The reason you can't just solve Ghost Mode's problem by losing characters but keeping progress, though, is because the skill tree is entirely too long and convoluted. It takes many hours to level a character up, with many of their abilities coming from skills that one would expect a Ghost to already have (like sync shots, a parachute, a suppressor that doesn't suck, etc.). The skill trees need to be significantly trimmed, with fewer but more meaningful abilities and milestones. The growth potential for ghosts needs to be in finer precision detail, like one of them being a better sniper as they spend time sniping, or one of them running faster. I use State of Decay as an example, where your survivors are all unique characters with a handful of traits. You find immediate value in some over others because they may have special skills or abilities that suit your playstyle, but you can also make them better over time by improving their cardio, melee skills, shooting, etc.

This means you grow attached to specific characters, and when they die it's a big deal. However, it's not the end of your entire game, and you don't face restarting a long, boring, arbitrary climb just for the sake of it -- or, worse, because of a glitch.

You could roughly simulate that experience in Ghost Mode with some changes, but to make it fun and enjoyable and interesting I feel like the work you'd need to do would be much better spent elsewhere. Trying to "fix" Ghost Mode is trying to fix a problem you shouldn't have, because it's not reflective of the game you designed. The game you designed, and which we're all playing, would be much better off having options available in the campaign.

Then Ghost Mode can be a carefully curated mode with set restrictions.

[shobhit7777777]

I don't think you can dilute "Permadeath", it's an all or nothing concept by definition and should stay in the game as an option.

The issue is that it is tied to the gameplay parameters (secondary weapon, weapon selection, magazine reload etc) that most attracts the very same set of players that most want NG+. Some of us don't like collecting, don't like going to find weapon crates, don't like XP and skill trees etc. As far as I can tell there is a significant correlation between the players that want the more milsim like features of Ghost Mode and those that want NG+, so combining Ghost Mode and permadeath is mis-reading what the community really wants.

Ghost mode should come with NG+ and permadeath just be an option.

Couldn't have said it better.

I'd like some of the Ghost Mode rules to transfer over to the campaign for a more authentic experience.