PSA: the final pillars of the turtle meta | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

About Block Strings, how would you feel about all attacks not being stopped by standard block? Lights as well as heavies could only be stopped by Superior Block?

Personally, I'd be on board if there was a difference in Block Stun, where blocking light attacks has a faster recovery and less chip damage % than blocking a heavy. If they chain a heavy from a light, you might have enough time to recover from blocking the light and interrupt the heavy, or get baited into a HA trade, things like that.

I'm not really confident on speaking either way for allowing lights to continue combos on block when not OOS. Mainly because hit stun in this game is really damned weird and doesn't really follow any particular pattern. As an example of this let me link you a video from freeze about some stun situations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iukhqmTcQ8

I would need to know more about stun/staggers in this game in order to give a better answer. But providing they could clean up stun/stagger situations in general to make it more understandable your idea about allowing lights to still continue but stagger less than a heavy would seems like a solid idea.

[Knight_Raime]

Glad you said that, this is the third time I've seen this kid say parrying doesn't exist in real sword play, and yeah getting kind of annoying.

They really do need to look into zone option, as in my opinion this is just as detrimental to the games health as the guard flicker big was back in release. Plus it only benefits certain classes.

I think they should look at how the attack is read, it seems like it's reading as a heavy and a light, then taking priority depending on what attack is thrown that the zone is responding to.

Honestly I didn't expect my recreational hobby for being a nerd when I was younger would end up being useful in any sense. I still wouldn't claim to be anything close to knowledgable when it comes to fighting techniques. But I do know a few things. For honor trips a lot of people up in a realism sense. So it's not really surprising people make mistakes. And I agree zone option selects are disgusting. I just don't know how they would deal with it. For zones specifically it's not really about specific inputs. But rather the timing of it. Because if you input at the wrong time for a parry you zone instead. But if you do input the zone in the right time it sees a heavy and thus parries.

They already made zone input super strict. So I don't think they can do anything in that direction. I suppose if they add an extra paramiter where it prioritizes one action over another in this situation that "might" be a fix. But i'm not a coder. I don't know how to do that or even if it's possible for the devs to do.

[SpaceJim12]

Glad you said that, this is the third time I've seen this kid say parrying doesn't exist in real sword play, and yeah getting kind of annoying.

Sorry, but Raime just confirmed my words. Read with more attention, kid. 50% of FH moves never happend in real swords fighting.

I would also be careful on what you claim with dueling. As that's my territory. I only duel and have been for most of for honor's cycle. the staring contests you are talking about don't happen often. It was more prevalent in the early months of for honor. But it hasn't been for awhile. As for not being able to stop the turtle meta that's not what this post is about. As long as passive blocking and free damage exists via parrying turtling will always be possible. This post was not aimed at stopping the turtle meta. You can't remove a play style. This post is to bring light the remaining bugs or issues that prevent the game from being more prediction based. Which is what the devs are attempting to go for and have been since season 5 ish.

Well, yes, I don't play duels, cause always play with my friend. But in Dominion 1v1 it's mostly happend same way as I described. So, if things with "wait and parry everything" could happend offten in chaos of Dominion, so in perfect condition of the duels...
But again, as I metioned, I met people who play aggresivly, my friend play that way. But when someone see him doing all this offensive moves, people mostly just stop to react at all. So feints useless against them in 80% of battles.

People who constantly go for parries are usually low skill and are easily tripped up into something they can't handle.

But from what I see, they not "constantly go for parries". I speak about people, who parry only moves, that they sure about. As example look at Raiders zone. On average level it's really work well, when you mixing his zone with feinted toplight, but when you meet high level opponent it's never work. He will wait top light until count all ms, sure zone can't be feinted anymore and parry.

Removing parrying is just a bad idea all around and is not a solution. And feints do what they're supposed to. Everything I listed here is far more of an issue than what you think these things currently do to the game. That's not arguable.

Well, why removing parry is a bad idea?

[Knight_Raime]

Sorry, but Raime just confirmed my words. Read with more attention, kid. 50% of FH moves never happend in real swords fighting.



Well, yes, I don't play duels, cause always play with my friend. But in Dominion 1v1 it's mostly happend same way as I described. So, if things with "wait and parry everything" could happend offten in chaos of Dominion, so in perfect condition of the duels...
But again, as I metioned, I met people who play aggresivly, my friend play that way. But when someone see him doing all this offensive moves, people mostly just stop to react at all. So feints useless against them in 80% of battles.



But from what I see, they not "constantly go for parries". I speak about people, who parry only moves, that they sure about. As example look at Raiders zone. On average level it's really work well, when you mixing his zone with feinted toplight, but when you meet high level opponent it's never work. He will wait top light until count all ms, sure zone can't be feinted anymore and parry.



Well, why removing parry is a bad idea?

My point is that for honor isn't a realistic fighter nor is attempting to be one. So talking about what is and isn't done in sword fighting is irrelevant.
Hard feinting and non delayed hard/soft feinting are easy to predict at higher levels. But that doesn't mean feinting in general is not useful in higher levels.
If you've managed to break into high/top tier in either duels or dominion most of playing involves out mind gaming your opponent. Not what your hero can do.

You're confusing then. Because your prior statement made it sound like everything is being parried. If they're only going and parrying moves their comfortable with that's different and changes the discussion. Raiders stunning tap options are bad because they're slow and can be avoided with a well timed dodge that raider can't punish. Parrying his mix up means you're probably playing against someone who's playing predictably as raider and not delaying his feints and soft feints. it's far safer to dodge the mix up then it is to wait and parry.

Because it's a core part of the game that effects several aspects of fighting. The goal of removal (if I understand correctly,) is to allow people to be more offensive. Because parrying is allowing people to play defensive and halt aggressive play. Is this correct? If so I encourage you to re look over my original post. Because one of my suggestions was adding varied ms increments. This would mean you'd have to learn all the parry timings for raider. instead of being able to handle raider because you got used to the timings of another hero. That combined with adding more mix ups means waiting and parrying will be even less of an issue.

You're basically taking a sledge hammer to a problem that can be fixed with a screw driver. It would work in a way. But it would cause a lot of other problems.

[Awlkara]

I recently came back to For Honor and I noticed a huge thing that to me is killing the game.
And that is offense vs defense.

We currently have a game where mixups are hardly there and you are more heavily rewarded for just sitting there turtling as opposed to actually pressing the issue.

Unless you are any of those heroes with 300ms lights or real mixup you are forced to just sit there and feint attacks and not really do any real sort of mixup.
All lights are way too easy to see and the reward for being aggresive is so not worth it that it's just better to be defensive

Characters like Shaman are deemed overpowered when in reality she should be the standards for aggression in this game. The ability to actually break through defenses.

I main PK and I've met players that can literally see everything I do right down to my zone and without an unblockable I was just helpless before them. No amount of feinting or mixing up even worked because their sense where so honed to this game that attacking them is more or less impossible.

This game really needs to turn it up on the aggressive aspect so we can actually move forward and create a game that lets us choose to be aggressive or not. Speed up lights for everyone, give every class an unblockable so you can combat heavily turtling Conqs and Lawbringers because as a PK without an unblockable to break the ice and press an issue what am I supposed to do?

Sad thing is, the newer heroes are all taking this "aggressive" approach into practice where heroes like PK are just lame versions of characters like Shaman, whom by the way has the exact same kit as PK but just bloated and faster with more damage and mixup. Stuff like that makes absolutely no sense how polarizing it is between newer and old heroes where some are completely made irrelevant by the existence of other heroes.

The sooner we buff being aggressive the sooner this game can shine.

At least in my own opinion so we can put an end to this turtle meta for good.

[fretti21]

Honestly when you have played this game for long time and taken the time to learn the chars and what they can do and how to counter their tricks its not turtling, its experience, im agressive player and know what to expect from any toon that is thrown to me at matchup and i get called turtle a lot, put i push and bait to get those moves that i want you do too and get salted when i block and parry every thing, its just your short comings and the ability to think ouside the box.

[JediGamerFurius]

I think they should look at how the attack is read, it seems like it's reading as a heavy and a light, then taking priority depending on what attack is thrown that the zone is responding to.

Agreed, I think they should put orange glows for lights and red for heavy.

[Awlkara]

Honestly when you have played this game for long time and taken the time to learn the chars and what they can do and how to counter their tricks its not turtling, its experience, im agressive player and know what to expect from any toon that is thrown to me at matchup and i get called turtle a lot, put i push and bait to get those moves that i want you do too and get salted when i block and parry every thing, its just your short comings and the ability to think ouside the box.

I literally face players that don't do anything until I do, I am talking real turtles. There is also my inability to think outside of the box but my hero (Peacekeeper) doesn't have any unblockables so I don't really know what to do to get through those whose eyes see everything.

[Knight_Raime]

Honestly when you have played this game for long time and taken the time to learn the chars and what they can do and how to counter their tricks its not turtling, its experience, im agressive player and know what to expect from any toon that is thrown to me at matchup and i get called turtle a lot, put i push and bait to get those moves that i want you do too and get salted when i block and parry every thing, its just your short comings and the ability to think ouside the box.

Turtling is when you do not play with any risk to yourself and only parry when you know you're going to land it. Experience doesn't change that.
You're talking about having a solid defense. Which is fine and should be possible. But the things i've listed here make defensive play too easy for how strong defense is.
Which is why these things need fixing/changing.

[JediGamerFurius]

I literally face players that don't do anything until I do, I am talking real turtles. There is also my inability to think outside of the box but my hero (Peacekeeper) doesn't have any unblockables so I don't really know what to do to get through those whose eyes see everything.

Well I don't play with pacekeeper but as the orochis she lacks an opener, I think you should try to use feints then light or feint then GB.