Senior Member
This thread is going to bring to light the final factors that make turtling as effective as it is. This thread is not about which is better more reactionary play or more reads? This thread is an informative post that explains specifically the issues this game still has that allows someone to be able to defend themselves as easily as they do. These issues are widely known to the competitive community and some of them are even aware to the casual base. The devs are moving towards a less reactionary based game but still trying to keep the idea of a strong defense possible. Which is fine. The issue is these problems i'm about to state basically undermine the efforts the devs have been making towards this goal.
The first issue we will talk about is standard guards bug. For the sake of simplicity I will call it the flicker switch bug. Here is a video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAgWSY6OstI
Summary: Standard guard heros have a unique "mechanic" called guard switch recovery. it's a very short window of time that happens whenever you switch your guard. During this recovery period you can't perform certain actions. These would be things like attacking, parrying, dodging etc. What flicker switch bug does it it essentially removes this mechanic. Meaning they can block instantly after being hit. This basically allows standard guard heros to be able to block delayed 400ms lights on reaction. This is bad because the whole purpose of those specific lights is to make bog standard block defense difficult.
The next issue we will talk about is Dodge into unlocked roll. For the sake of simplicity I will refer to it as a unlock roll. Here is a video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOKlO-SjNtw
Summary: Dodging is a common way to avoid and punish something. Rolling is a stronger way to avoid something but without the ability to punish after avoiding. Dodge unlock roll allows you to escape any mix up in the game AND allows you to get the same punishment on the attacker that you would have gotten if you made the correct response with a dodge to avoid. This is a major issue because mix ups are not useful with it in play. This isn't a prediction based move either. You simply dodge in response to whatever the person is doing and then unlock which turns it into a roll should you see a GB indicator or you realized you messed up your dodge timing. As the video points out this also lets you attempt deflecting risk free.
The next topic of discussion is about parrying. Parrying is a strong defensive option. The power of parrying was nerfed with season 5 and parry attempts are unsafe due to the beginning of the animations being GB vulnerable. However the ease of parrying is the remaining issue. This is not because of the input or anything mechanical about how parrying works. Rather this is an issue with how predictable attacks are. Mix ups address this to a degree. But attack speeds are also contributing to this. In a standard fighting game you have to learn the timings of each individual fighter you go up against. In for honor you only need to master 3-4 different timings in order to be profficient at blocking against the entire cast. This is because most attacks share the same speeds in 100ms increments.
Then there is also the buffer issue. Which basically means if you input an action before the first one is finished you que the attack. When this is done this makes the buffered action slower than it was intended to be. This is part of the reason why combos are not effective.
Beyond that we also have to look at a lack of block strings. For those unaware a block string is referring to someone being able to continually attack someone while they block to keep pressure on the individual. In For honor this isn't a thing. Primarily because for honor doesn't use combos in the traditional sense. But we do allow heavy attacks to continue a string despite being blocked. Without block strings a single timed block usually resets the fight to neutral and shuts out offense.
The final 2 concepts we will touch on involves Blocking itself, and guard switch recovery. Blocking is a passive action instead of being an active action like most fighters. This makes defending yourself for most heros in the game rather easy. As you need not learn correct timings. And guard switch recovery as I touched on earlier prevents standard guard heros from performing certain actions. This is potentially a balance problem though because it allows for some safe play for the attacker. Safe play is just as much a part of turtling as defending yourself is.
I suppose I could also mention a thing called option selects as those allow you to play safe with little risk as well. It's basically a single action that allows you to beat both options without having to guess. Notice the pattern? This is most commonly see with zones because it allows you to either parry or get free damage from the zone. But other ones exist. Like highlanders backwards light into offensive form.
So now that i've brought these things to light what do we do? The flicker switch issue is a bug that would be solved by fixing it. Unlock rolls is solved by making rolls guard break vulnerable in the first 200ms of the animation. block strings could exist via adding in mix ups on block. A few heros already have this. The buffer issue is another bug that can be solved via fixing it. the ease of parrying is solved by adding varied ms increments into the game instead of having everything forced into 100ms increments. I don't know how we could fix option selects. Passive blocking in itself might not need to be removed if the rest of the other issues are fixed. and while guard switch recovery is a poor mechanic that has bad side effects from it's inclusion if we removed it I don't know what issues it would cause. Likely we just need go allow standard guard heros to be able to dodge during said recovery. This would solve the nasty side effects it's inclusion causes for the most part.
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A thing about parrying:
I never understood why this game doesnt have a counter to parries.
Meaning: A tiny time window during parry animation allows the parried hero to counter the parry and give him a guaranteed reward (like a light, stam. drain etc.). That would be a much more interesting fix than the parry nerf we've gotten.
A thing about option selects:
While option selects are needed in Beat'em-Ups - because a lot of stuff happens quick and react to certain situations via option select reduces that stuff to a manageable level to counter some tactics - it's not needed in For Honor and shouldn't have a place in there - there are not many numerous things in FH that can happen during a short time and breaking those down, by using option selects, makes it even worse. Furthermore, option selects cover existing hero (balance-) issues.
Senior Member
I mean you can punish a parry attempt with feint into GB. I'm not sure a parry punish would work in for honor's structure. Do you happen to know of another fighter that uses something similar to what you're referring to? would help me understand better.Originally Posted by E1seNw0Lf Go to original post
and i'm with you on option selects. Just as i've said I haven't been able to think of a solution to them.
Member
Yeah, you can but the effort for that is - like you said - to feint a heavy which means a good amount of stamina loss, plus you might not get anything from it but punished yourself (getting closer to OOS state, meaning: a stamina drain move from your oppenent is all thats needed to get you there).Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Normally a parry gives you frame advantage, but when you are quick enough - with specific input - you'll be able to counter and/or reverse that. You could do a step to the side, kick/push your opponent away, ... lock or push your opponents weapon back. Possible is there a lot, but it needs additional animations and transitions between those. I think that's the reason why not many fighting games have it yet.
The first - and only - game, that comes to my mind, is Tekken.
There it is called "Chickening", meaning: reversing an attack reversal.
It also has a few throw escapes and some (secret) throw reversals (some are in there since Tekken 1 - year 1994).
SoulCalibur VI will have something close to it: "Reversal Edge"
Edit: We might see (reversing) attack reversals on Nuxia tho.
Senior Member
Hmmm...in my experience of play, I should say, that I mostly met two type of players. People who can't do anything against feints and people who always parry and counter all of your feints. So, while first type loose nothing with all thing described above, the second type will keep on being turtles. This people just don't care about feints, they know them all.
And in the end, don't forget about cheaters on PC. They mostly parry/block gods, and they will keep play like this.
As I metioned in feint thread around, devs should remove parry in first place. In real sword fight no such thing. And every block blade by blade called "parry", so this mechanic is stupid in it's core. Same as feints, that (again) did not exist in real sword fight in the same way as For Honor's feints.
Most fights in duel now slow and stupid cause of it. People stay there, stare at each other, and wait. Someone try his tricks, but on proper level you will have nothing from it. PK do heavy or zone? Guard up and wait for GB. Raider do zone, wait for top light, count ms, parry zone. Every move already known and learned. With all this feints, FH became not a reaction and reflex game, but wait game. Wait, while Berserker will tired of spam "cancel" button after every move and try to GB you, wait while Raider will loose all his stamina doing zone softfeint top light.
I could assure you, there is no proper way to stop turtle meta. With all this "more feints to feint's God" and "parry changes" passive play style still the best. It's safe and easy to do. Maybe not in duels, but 4v4 modes fights are really stupid cause of all this things.
Parry should be removed, feints should be reworked. Devs have all tools to make fights in FH exciting and dynamic. But they don't use it.
Senior Member
I can see your scenario happening in 4's. But I don't ever see that happening in duels unless both players were hard feinting consecutatively in order to attempt feint into GB.Originally Posted by E1seNw0Lf Go to original postYeah, you can but the effort for that is - like you said - to feint a heavy which means a good amount of stamina loss, plus you might not get anything from it but punished yourself (getting closer to OOS state, meaning: a stamina drain move from your oppenent is all thats needed to get you there).
Normally a parry gives you frame advantage, but when you are quick enough - with specific input - you'll be able to counter and/or reverse that. You could do a step to the side, kick/push your opponent away, ... lock or push your opponents weapon back. Possible is there a lot, but it needs additional animations and transitions between those. I think that's the reason why not many fighting games have it yet.
The first - and only - game, that comes to my mind, is Tekken.
There it is called "Chickening", meaning: reversing an attack reversal.
It also has a few throw escapes and some (secret) throw reversals (some are in there since Tekken 1 - year 1994
SoulCalibur VI will have something close to it: "Reversal Edge"
Edit: We might see (reversing) attack reversals on Nuxia tho.
And i'll look into soul calibur's reversal edge thing. Because i've never played tekken thus making me have to know more to understand that mechanics place in the game. Where as i'm familiar with soul calibur.
Senior Member
People who constantly go for parries are usually low skill and are easily tripped up into something they can't handle. It's possible you play at a higher skill bracket than me. But from what i've seen even with tournament players, the "wait and see" style of play hasn't been around since season 5 dropped. Even back in the day with really strong parry rewards parrying at the top level was never done unless it was guaranteed. There's just never been any skill level where attempting to parry everything has been the optimal way to play.Originally Posted by SpaceJim12 Go to original post
I actually have sword fighting experience. Parries and deflects both exist in sword fighting. They're not performed the same way as they are in For honor. But None of the fighting techniques in this game are realistic.. They were all performed in mocap by stage actors with the intent of making the fights look cinimatic and entertaining from a spectators perspective. A traditional parry typically lets the sword slide to the cross guard and then the person shoves the blade via the cross guard off to the side. The other "parry" involves letting the person's momentum slide down their blade and after a certain distance has happened from this the person letting this happen uses their sword to direct the swing off to the side.
Parrying in this game is wrong in the sense that you're meeting the other individuals swing with your own swing. Doing this is placing both your weight and force and the opponents weight and force at their fullest in one spot. This technically can work. But you basically chip the blade by doing so. Which if done enough times can perma damage the blade beyond repair or even break it. Shields can technically meet the full force of someone's swing and bash it away. as shields are designed to distribute the force evenly. But you really wouldn't do this anyway as it exposes your mid section defeating the purpose of actually using a shield.
As for feinting goes again it's an actual technique. Just not in the way for honor does it. You're essentially faking out someone with your own subtle movements in order to try to have them leave an opening for you to stab them. You don't do this to force a swing that you parry. that's something that's made up in for honor. Anyway, that all aside realism doesn't have a place in balance discussion. So stick to in game stuff.
I would also be careful on what you claim with dueling. As that's my territory. I only duel and have been for most of for honor's cycle. the staring contests you are talking about don't happen often. It was more prevalent in the early months of for honor. But it hasn't been for awhile. As for not being able to stop the turtle meta that's not what this post is about. As long as passive blocking and free damage exists via parrying turtling will always be possible. This post was not aimed at stopping the turtle meta. You can't remove a play style. This post is to bring light the remaining bugs or issues that prevent the game from being more prediction based. Which is what the devs are attempting to go for and have been since season 5 ish.
Removing parrying is just a bad idea all around and is not a solution. And feints do what they're supposed to. Everything I listed here is far more of an issue than what you think these things currently do to the game. That's not arguable.
Member
About Block Strings, how would you feel about all attacks not being stopped by standard block? Lights as well as heavies could only be stopped by Superior Block?
Personally, I'd be on board if there was a difference in Block Stun, where blocking light attacks has a faster recovery and less chip damage % than blocking a heavy. If they chain a heavy from a light, you might have enough time to recover from blocking the light and interrupt the heavy, or get baited into a HA trade, things like that.
Banned
Glad you said that, this is the third time I've seen this kid say parrying doesn't exist in real sword play, and yeah getting kind of annoying.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Banned
They really do need to look into zone option, as in my opinion this is just as detrimental to the games health as the guard flicker big was back in release. Plus it only benefits certain classes.
I think they should look at how the attack is read, it seems like it's reading as a heavy and a light, then taking priority depending on what attack is thrown that the zone is responding to.
