How 85% of the for honor community reacts to new characters. | Forums

[BTTrinity]

Definitely me after Shaman came out....

"I was NOT in control of that situation at all!"

"I need a vacation"

[CandleInTheDark]

I think you are forgetting that Shinobi indeed was actually extremely strong when he was released, it wasn't until his kick nerf he got to a more balanced place. His double dodge into GB/kick was better than any tool in the game and he was almost impossible to engage by most heroes where shinobi dictated the whole duel by double dodge mixup.

Gladiator's zone is still too safe/rewarding in comparison to rest of the rooster's available tools. Just because we got used to it being in the game doesn't mean he is balanced.

Aramusha was released with a light combo that hitstun locks assassins to 100>0 in real latency environment, 37ms attack input delay and dedicated servers alleviated his problem a bit and he is accepted ok simply because he falls short against non-reflex guard heroes.

I never recall a time highlander was considered too strong, maybe some people might have.

My point is if we had listened to the people who try to excuse broken stuff at the release of shinobi, and just tried to adapt the way they ask; then devs would not bother fixing him in the absence of the complains. Not to mention justified complaints against S2 centurion and shaman. How many people rage quit the game over them I wonder.

Tiandi's tools are simply better versions of some of the best kits in the game. Will he be defeated? Sure. Will there be a non sentimental reason to pick old rooster heroes over him? Maybe berserker, but that seems to be about it if you look from a purely utility perspective.

People on these forums mistake the concept of balanced as 'beatable' and manageable within itself; where as balance is a relative term and it only applies if all heroes suck equally or are OP equally.

I never had much of a problem with shinobi and I was using warden heavily at that time, yes he had the kick, yes he had ranged tools, the kick was baitable and if your could block and cgb you could shut down his ranged game while walking him down until he ran out of space.

Gladiator, if you look at the win rates, has never been above mid tier, in season 6 he was only above valkyrie and orochi, one of which had a rework this season and the other is getting one next. I absolutely use that win rate chart as a guide beore anything on that comes up because that is the level that Ubisoft are balancing at and should balance at for their aims.

Aramusha in real latency I will give you, I would argue that Orochi in its current state is worse but I see a lot more orochi than Aramusha's.

Highlander I have seen threads and comments but they were rare compared to others. People did say how OP he is going to be before release though as they have every hero.

With the Tiandi, your observation is based on how many hours playtesting him exactly or is it based on 'a youtuber said so'? I am not trying to be confrontational and I would hope my record on this forum supports me in that I don't tend to be but people don't see just what content creators are doing, have done since day one, and it frustrates me. These streamers, most of them are interested in nothing more than their wallet, this is their job for some of them, and the bulk of them jump on every bandwagon because telling their viewers 'hey maybe if you don't know their kit that is the problem' won't get them clicks, certainly not as many as 'don't worry dude you lost to op trash'. Just as they play every fad game going, they work the fads within games and I gave numerous examples not long ago.

Here is the thing though, should this game collapse because of the toxicity they instigate, fan and promote, they will move on to the next fad, those of us who just want to play the game will be the ones who miss out.

As for the Tiandi, I can't go into detail but no, he is not op, I can base this on using him and on fighting people using him unlike most on here who are emoting over him and thinking him doom to the game. You will have to fight him different to how you fight a warden or a raider, but saying that you fight a berserker differently to how you would fight a peacekeeper, a nobushi differently to how you would fight a lawbringer, a conqueror differently to how you would fight a shugoki and that is not a bad thing, if they put characters in that play like every other character they might as well not bother. Tiandi will be dangerous to dodge but his heavy dodges will be parryable and you will see what direction his light dodges come from with how he dodges, nuxia has whatever she has with the blocking, jiang jjun has whatever he has with the zone type attacks, shaolin has two stances, people will figure them out, as they have with every other character, and will be back on their mains or calling for buffs for some of them just in time for the next lot to come in.

And yeah for me beatable is indeed balanced, why would a character that you can beat or manage not be balanced? The devs absolutely should make sure that they get the characters as close to each other as they can but they should not make them all the same hero in the process.

[DFQN1]

Can someone please edit a Shugoki and Valkyrie head in the video? It fits perfectly.

[Mia.Nora]

I never had much of a problem with shinobi and I was using warden heavily at that time, yes he had the kick, yes he had ranged tools, the kick was baitable and if your could block and cgb you could shut down his ranged game while walking him down until he ran out of space.

Gladiator, if you look at the win rates, has never been above mid tier, in season 6 he was only above valkyrie and orochi, one of which had a rework this season and the other is getting one next. I absolutely use that win rate chart as a guide beore anything on that comes up because that is the level that Ubisoft are balancing at and should balance at for their aims.

Aramusha in real latency I will give you, I would argue that Orochi in its current state is worse but I see a lot more orochi than Aramusha's.

Highlander I have seen threads and comments but they were rare compared to others. People did say how OP he is going to be before release though as they have every hero.

With the Tiandi, your observation is based on how many hours playtesting him exactly or is it based on 'a youtuber said so'? I am not trying to be confrontational and I would hope my record on this forum supports me in that I don't tend to be but people don't see just what content creators are doing, have done since day one, and it frustrates me. These streamers, most of them are interested in nothing more than their wallet, this is their job for some of them, and the bulk of them jump on every bandwagon because telling their viewers 'hey maybe if you don't know their kit that is the problem' won't get them clicks, certainly not as many as 'don't worry dude you lost to op trash'. Just as they play every fad game going, they work the fads within games and I gave numerous examples not long ago.

Here is the thing though, should this game collapse because of the toxicity they instigate, fan and promote, they will move on to the next fad, those of us who just want to play the game will be the ones who miss out.

As for the Tiandi, I can't go into detail but no, he is not op, I can base this on using him and on fighting people using him unlike most on here who are emoting over him and thinking him doom to the game. You will have to fight him different to how you fight a warden or a raider, but saying that you fight a berserker differently to how you would fight a peacekeeper, a nobushi differently to how you would fight a lawbringer, a conqueror differently to how you would fight a shugoki and that is not a bad thing, if they put characters in that play like every other character they might as well not bother. Tiandi will be dangerous to dodge but his heavy dodges will be parryable and you will see what direction his light dodges come from with how he dodges, nuxia has whatever she has with the blocking, jiang jjun has whatever he has with the zone type attacks, shaolin has two stances, people will figure them out, as they have with every other character, and will be back on their mains or calling for buffs for some of them just in time for the next lot to come in.

And yeah for me beatable is indeed balanced, why would a character that you can beat or manage not be balanced? The devs absolutely should make sure that they get the characters as close to each other as they can but they should not make them all the same hero in the process.

I don't want to debate about old stuff, but you seriously can not be claiming Shinobi was balanced at his release. I will simply assume you just don't recall correctly and mistake some more recent memory with release reality.

With glad zone, I just wont argue. If you think glad zone is balanced we are destined to agree to disagree, and no point in discussing why Tiandi kit is problematic.

My concerns about Tiandi does not rely on anyone's opinion. All opinions are subjective due to nature of opinion. My points are based on frame test data which is as close as anything can get to objective truth. If you want to dispute that frame test data with a different more extensive one that overwrites the facts of the former, please do so. Otherwise all my concerns that's raised (I have already mentioned them enough in other threads) are based on the closest thing to objective facts.

[CandleInTheDark]

I don't want to debate about old stuff, but you seriously can not be claiming Shinobi was balanced at his release. I will simply assume you just don't recall correctly and mistake some more recent memory with release reality.

With glad zone, I just wont argue. If you think glad zone is balanced we are destined to agree to disagree, and no point in discussing why Tiandi kit is problematic.

My concerns about Tiandi does not rely on anyone's opinion. All opinions are subjective due to nature of opinion. My points are based on frame test data which is as close as anything can get to objective truth. If you want to dispute that frame test data with a different more extensive one that overwrites the facts of the former, please do so. Otherwise all my concerns that's raised (I have already mentioned them enough in other threads) are based on the closest thing to objective facts.

I was one of those from the beginning that said yes shinobi's kick needed looking at but it was predictable, that a shinobi had no reason to dodge only once so likely he was going into a second dodge for either a kick or heavy, I won't say I had no problems at all with shinobi but I beat as many as I lost against because I practice with and against every new hero.

You're looking at one move for gladiator, I am looking at the win rates at the level the devs want to balance him. Gladiator, in season five, had no individual matchup that went higher than 58%. He had only six matchups that went higher than 50%, he had nine matchups below 45% (the devs target 45-55%) of those five of them were less than 40% and one was as low as 28%. You can tell me one move is overpowered but I see a character that as a whole is vastly underperforming and, if you want to bring up going by objective facts, those numbers are more objective than 'I struggle with one move'.

What you are looking at individual moves out of context with the kit as a whole, again you are looking at videos of him, he has nothing that is any harder to deal with individually than anything else other people have. What he does have is different needs in terms of dealing with him and that is something that people will learn with time. Which is not to say that he is perfect or won't need slight tweaks, as with others driving the OP narrative on four days testing, i have no more than anyone else, but ultimately people will have the choice they have with any other of the DLC characters, learn his kit and how to counter it or blame the game for a problem that is at least half of their own making.

[Vakris_One]

I don't want to debate about old stuff, but you seriously can not be claiming Shinobi was balanced at his release. I will simply assume you just don't recall correctly and mistake some more recent memory with release reality.

I think you're mistaking two different things as one. Yes, Cent and Shinobi were not balanced when they were released and the devs fixed them after extensive feedback from the more informed parts of the community. However the fact remains that over 70% of this community cries "nerf" at the first glance of a new or reworked hero without waiting for any objective evidence to support their claims. You can't really equate that portion of the community's contributions as equal to or better than the rational thinking part of the community that give objective based feedback to the devs and not just emotionally based gut feelings. It would be like saying the boy who cries wolf every single time is justified in doing so because by pure coincedence the wolf was sighted 2 times out of the 10 that the boy cried out.

With glad zone, I just wont argue. If you think glad zone is balanced we are destined to agree to disagree, and no point in discussing why Tiandi kit is problematic.

You're discussing Tiandi's kit with someone who actually played and fought against this character whereas you have not yet done so. Yet you believe that there is no way that anything Candle has to say about Tiandi is worth your time. Forgive me for stating the obvious but isn't that just a tad unreasonable from you?

My concerns about Tiandi does not rely on anyone's opinion. All opinions are subjective due to nature of opinion. My points are based on frame test data which is as close as anything can get to objective truth. If you want to dispute that frame test data with a different more extensive one that overwrites the facts of the former, please do so. Otherwise all my concerns that's raised (I have already mentioned them enough in other threads) are based on the closest thing to objective facts.

Except that the person who presented this frame data also omitted mentioning the Tiandi's weaknesses like his side dodge heavy being so slow that he cannot punish over 80% of the attacks in the game. He did not give an objective based analysis of this character's moves. He picked out the specific things about his kit that will need looking into and presented that as the be all and end all of the character in order to generate as much controversy and clicks to his channel as possible. Please don't forget that all Youtubers are running a business at the end of the day and their primary goal is to put food on their table.

This person only had 4 days available, as all tech testers did, to have a cursory glance of a character that is 3 months away from final release. Having been in the tech test myself I have enough reasons to doubt the thoroughness of his analysis. And that's all I can say on that as I am still under NDA. My main point is: if making your mind up about a hero that is 3 months away from release isn't the textbook definition of making your mind up too early, I don't know what is.

[Mia.Nora]

No offense but in the exact same thread you are saying we should not base decisions on people's opinions, then you say your own opinion and expect me to take it over a frame test and then get offended that I just don't trust your opinion?? That frame test has 60 fps clarity where moves are checked against other moves. What more context is needed I have absolutely no idea.

Also doesn't his dodge heavy cancel into dodge light is fast enough to punish attacks just fine?? It is not like it is a committed move, it can be soft and hard feinted without losing iframes.
For Honor is not a game where heroes used to full extend of their kits; it is a game where the cheesiest and strongest bit of the kit is exploited.

Anyway at this point what needs to be said is already put out, there is nothing more than just wait and hope they wont make old rooster obsolete.

[CandleInTheDark]

No offense but in the exact same thread you are saying we should not base decisions on people's opinions, then you say your own opinion and expect me to take it over a frame test and then get offended that I just don't trust your opinion?? That frame test has 60 fps clarity where moves are checked against other moves. What more context is needed I have absolutely no idea.

Also doesn't his dodge heavy cancel into dodge light is fast enough to punish attacks just fine?? It is not like it is a committed move, it can be soft and hard feinted without losing iframes.
For Honor is not a game where heroes used to full extend of their kits; it is a game where the cheesiest and strongest bit of the kit is exploited.

Anyway at this point what needs to be said is already put out, there is nothing more than just wait and hope they wont make old rooster obsolete.

What I am saying is don't let your opinions be formed for you by people who are looking for clicks because this is the kind of thing that streamers have been doing since season one with their I'm going to take an unlevelled peacekeeper into tournaments to show how easy she is stunts and people drank so deeply of their kool aid they didn't see that the people with professed zero knowledge of her were pulling off max punishes and weren't using the bit that they said was so exploitative about her. At the same time I am saying that I have no agenda and that hey I am not saying that I am without question right because just like them I only had four days.

Like I said, I can't talk about the tiandi in depth outside of I found him no harder than anyone else I fight once I learned the trick to dealing with him, but that's what we get when we have a two tier NDA and those who don't have to abide by the bits I do look for the best way to get clicks to their channel. So there is no point asking me to comment on specifics like you did over his feint because I am not losing my account and/or getting sued in France to argue my point on a forum.

[Vakris_One]

No offense but in the exact same thread you are saying we should not base decisions on people's opinions, then you say your own opinion and expect me to take it over a frame test and then get offended that I just don't trust your opinion??

Never said I was offended nor did I infer that you should take my opinion over someone elses. All I am saying is you should at least try to keep an open mind for someone who only has a Youtube video to base their entire opinion off of. That's all.

That frame test has 60 fps clarity where moves are checked against other moves. What more context is needed I have absolutely no idea.

It's possible we're not referring to the same video. The only frame test video I am aware of is Freeze's cursory glance at Tiandi's attack speeds. He does not check them in detail to other character's attack speeds. As for what more context is needed;
1) Go check the fight videos other Youtubers have posted. Both the 1v1s and Breach and please analyse carefully what moves the Tiandi players are sticking to and how opponents are countering them in an actual live fight environment.

2) You are aware that everything in the tech test was in its beta stage, yes? There were certain bugs and descrepencies in the test compared to the live game that gives me enough reason to take Freeze's analyses of Tiandi's forward dash light with a pinch of salt. But since only Ubisoft's precious Youtubers can bypass the NDA you'll have to stay in the dark about the details and Ubi will have to spend 3 months reading "Tiandi is broken" threads because one Youtuber decided a mini controversy generates more clicks to their channel.

Also doesn't his dodge heavy cancel into dodge light is fast enough to punish attacks just fine?? It is not like it is a committed move, it can be soft and hard feinted without losing iframes.

If you dodge heavy then cancel to dodge light it costs a fair amount of stamina and isn't fast enough to catch an opponent that only comitted to a single light attack. They will be able to block it. The dodge light is primarily useful for catching an opponent who reacts with a dodge. As you can see from other Youtuber's videos and their comments; In a 1v1 fight against a Tiandi you can just wait the Tiandi out to finish doing his ballerina twirls, there's no need for you to get caught out by launching attacks while he is in full dance, dance mode.

For Honor is not a game where heroes used to full extend of their kits; it is a game where the cheesiest and strongest bit of the kit is exploited.

For sure, every hero has a cheesy part to their kit. But there is still skill to consider and a genuinley skilled player will always win against a mediocre player who crutches on their cheesiest moves. PvP games in general are a place where players who crutch on a single mechanic or move always get found out and beaten by other genuinley more skilled players.

Anyway at this point what needs to be said is already put out, there is nothing more than just wait and hope they wont make old rooster obsolete.

I agree. What needs to be said has already been said. I'm looking forward to the open beta where everyone will finally have a chance to try out the new stuff and nobody will have a monopoly on influencing public opinion.

[MrForz]

I'm not too eager to meet these fancy new characters with their probably toxic gameplay made in the name of "variety".