Nerf Conqs Sb FInally. | Forums

[Erhanninja]

It feeds more revenge than any dodge attack in the game.

It does less damage than any dodge attack in the game.

Its among the riskiest dodge attacks in the game because it can be punished with GB.

The 50/50 with GB loses to lights, unless they aren't delaying for mind games, in which case you don't have to guess and you can just react.

And its his only gap closer.

The SB mid chain is basically safe and admittedly strong with wall bounce, but the rest of conqueror offense is laughable.

The SB soft feint from heavy is a relatively useless gimmick.

The reduction to 13 damage lights was enough to bring conqueror in line. The Shinobi 50/50 with kick and heavy-feint-GB is astronomically more powerful against the half of the roster that lacks dodge attacks.

Make a thread about something thats actually OP

Finally somebody understand how SB works. If you think it’s OP pick Conq and try. You will see if it’s OP or not. You will hardly land a SB on an assassin they will always dodge it with attack.

Or Warden always will outsmarts you. Warden can cancel vortex charge it GB from it. Gets guaranteed 2 lights from it. SB has none of these options.

I will tell you what is OP. HL kick into grab is OP. HL stunlock is OP. Kensei instant zone with HA is OP. Shugoki headbutt making me 10 second out of combat is OP. WL headbutt is OP. Shaman pounce into guaranteed 2 lights is OP. Shaman Throw into further throw by headbutt is OP. Gods sake Zerk is all around OP. Orochi light spam is OP.

Everybody is crying about SB being too fast. but I don’t see anybody crying about WL headbutt. Isn’t it faster?

So you want to punish SB? Sure. Can you punish Cent Kick or Nobu Kick or Shinobi Kick? If you can punish those attacks you can punish SB too. Shinobi has massive versatility compared to SB. You can’t punish every move with every hero in this game. We all know this.

Conq does peanut damage compared to other heroes. Also about duel win rate I believe feats are off at duel matches so SB doesn’t do damage?

[Charmzzz]

Finally somebody understand how SB works. If you think it’s OP pick Conq and try. You will see if it’s OP or not. You will hardly land a SB on an assassin they will always dodge it with attack.

Or Warden always will outsmarts you. Warden can cancel vortex charge it GB from it. Gets guaranteed 2 lights from it. SB has none of these options.

I will tell you what is OP. HL kick into grab is OP. HL stunlock is OP. Kensei instant zone with HA is OP. Shugoki headbutt making me 10 second out of combat is OP. WL headbutt is OP. Shaman pounce into guaranteed 2 lights is OP. Shaman Throw into further throw by headbutt is OP. Gods sake Zerk is all around OP. Orochi light spam is OP.

Everybody is crying about SB being too fast. but I don’t see anybody crying about WL headbutt. Isn’t it faster?

So you want to punish SB? Sure. Can you punish Cent Kick or Nobu Kick or Shinobi Kick? If you can punish those attacks you can punish SB too. Shinobi has massive versatility compared to SB. You can’t punish every move with every hero in this game. We all know this.

Conq does peanut damage compared to other heroes. Also about duel win rate I believe feats are off at duel matches so SB doesn’t do damage?

You show again how little your knowledge about the mechanics is. Sorry to say it that harsh...

Conq has a 60% Duel Winrate cause of SB, this move alone is stronger than any other move in the game right now. It is 500ms, delayable, and is the move being closest to a real 50:50. It is chainable and can be used to trick someone into a dodge - GB. It keeps opponents OOS until they are dead. It is unpunishable by most heroes.

Now let's compare your examples:
- Warden SB: 700ms, can be easily shut down with a Light (Conq SB 500ms - good luck with that prediction)
- WL Headbutt: cannot be delayed, so when you see the startup you can dodge and punish it with a GB (Conq SB on dodge is not punishable with a GB)
- HL Kick into Throw: HL has to go to OF first (Conq can do his move from neutral), then you can dodge Kick/Throw on reaction and punish HL (again, 700ms move compared to a 500ms)
- Shaman Pounce - that one is too strong, I agree, and there are lots of Threads about it

Look here next time before you use wrong arguments: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1037667970

[Entry_Error]

I agree partially. It is unfair when you are OOS. When you have stamina however, Double-Dash to avoid it. (Double-Tap A Button). This will cause the HL to animate a GB cancel backwards (like a failed GB). You lose like 50 stamina for this, no matter the hero, so that sucks. But it does reset the fight, and usually confuse the HL for a moment while you get your bearings. Hope this helps.

[Hormly]

I agree partially. It is unfair when you are OOS. When you have stamina however, Double-Dash to avoid it. (Double-Tap A Button). This will cause the HL to animate a GB cancel backwards (like a failed GB). You lose like 50 stamina for this, no matter the hero, so that sucks. But it does reset the fight, and usually confuse the HL for a moment while you get your bearings. Hope this helps.

Oh my...

[Knight_Raime]

You show again how little your knowledge about the mechanics is. Sorry to say it that harsh...

Conq has a 60% Duel Winrate cause of SB, this move alone is stronger than any other move in the game right now. It is 500ms, delayable, and is the move being closest to a real 50:50. It is chainable and can be used to trick someone into a dodge - GB. It keeps opponents OOS until they are dead. It is unpunishable by most heroes.

Now let's compare your examples:
- Warden SB: 700ms, can be easily shut down with a Light (Conq SB 500ms - good luck with that prediction)
- WL Headbutt: cannot be delayed, so when you see the startup you can dodge and punish it with a GB (Conq SB on dodge is not punishable with a GB)
- HL Kick into Throw: HL has to go to OF first (Conq can do his move from neutral), then you can dodge Kick/Throw on reaction and punish HL (again, 700ms move compared to a 500ms)
- Shaman Pounce - that one is too strong, I agree, and there are lots of Threads about it

Look here next time before you use wrong arguments: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1037667970

-vomits-

Wish people wouldn't throw around win rate like it's a god that dictates everything. This was my exact fear when they started giving this info. Because it's one step closer to the devs trying to force a 50% W/L ratio on heros. and it's that attitude that's ruined other hero based games in the past.
ANYWAY lets get on topic.

"closest thing to a 50/50..." 50/50 implies The opponent is doing something that requires two seperate actions to counter either thing. Rolling beats all. "50/50" only comes into play for some mix ups when you're out of stamina. Since you can't roll away. So stating this while not including the OOS part just means you're fluffling your argument.

"warden's SB can be shut down with a light." Yes it can. If you're good at predicting and he decides to commit to it. If you're attempting to do it on reaction you're reacting to the dodge and not the start up of SB when you first see the orange. Because you do not have the time from orange to when he lets it fly to throw a 500ms light and have it connect. It would be a better argment to state that you can just dodge late to avoid SB on reaction.

"WL headbutt can't be delayed so you can punish it with a GB on start up." Only if you predict. Freeze does a video on this if you can't take my word for it. His headbutt isn't reactable now that everyone has a 600ms dodge. At least you can't react GB (raider not included obv.) However headbutt can be punished on reaction if you have a dodge attack.

"HL kick into throw has to go into OF first.." Isn't really a talking point when a backwards walking light with highlander is an option select. You cannot react to his kick throw mix up. You late dodge into a roll to avoid it. Or you have a dodge attack that trumps the mix up (pk/glad excluded.) otherwise at best you're doing a backwards light yourself (LB and goki excluded) if you want to react punish it.

[EvoX.]

Oh my...

His post goes perfectly for the Conqueror's SB as well, doesn't matter that he incidentally talked about Highlander.

I find it interesting how you're here complaining about Conq while Warlord is 10 times dumber and more exploitable. Have you seen what a Warlord player does if he really wants to win, and how higher level 1v1's with Warlord look? Nausea inducing.

His headbutt isn't reactable now that everyone has a 600ms dodge. At least you can't react GB (raider not included obv.)

Exactly, so why is only Conq getting complained about?

...SB is the move being closest to a real 50:50.

It's nowhere near close to a 50/50. You can react to both the SB and the GB, one with a dodge, the other with a roll while still in the dodge. That beats out the move and all its various timings completely.

[Knight_Raime]

His post goes perfectly for the Conqueror's SB as well, doesn't matter that he incidentally talked about Highlander.

I find it interesting how you're here complaining about Conq while Warlord is 10 times dumber and more exploitable. Have you seen what a Warlord player does if he really wants to win, and how higher level 1v1's with Warlord look? Nausea inducing.



Exactly, so why is only Conq getting complained about?



It's nowhere near close to a 50/50. You can react to both the SB and the GB, one with a dodge, the other with a roll while still in the dodge. That beats out the move and all its various timings completely.

Because conq is meta.

[ElisandeWarmalo]

You show again how little your knowledge about the mechanics is. Sorry to say it that harsh...

Conq has a 60% Duel Winrate cause of SB, this move alone is stronger than any other move in the game right now. It is 500ms, delayable, and is the move being closest to a real 50:50. It is chainable and can be used to trick someone into a dodge - GB. It keeps opponents OOS until they are dead. It is unpunishable by most heroes.

Now let's compare your examples:
- Warden SB: 700ms, can be easily shut down with a Light (Conq SB 500ms - good luck with that prediction)
- WL Headbutt: cannot be delayed, so when you see the startup you can dodge and punish it with a GB (Conq SB on dodge is not punishable with a GB)
- HL Kick into Throw: HL has to go to OF first (Conq can do his move from neutral), then you can dodge Kick/Throw on reaction and punish HL (again, 700ms move compared to a 500ms)
- Shaman Pounce - that one is too strong, I agree, and there are lots of Threads about it

Look here next time before you use wrong arguments: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1037667970

Dude no, you can light interrupt when the Conqueror delays his Shieldbash, otherwise if it's raw you can dodge on reaction and most of the cast can punish.
And pls don't say that about HL OF like it takes a while and much skill to go in the OF.


Honestly other characters have same tools and they don't have 60% winrate. The thing is that it's not the bash that makes him strong vs pros, it's his other skills.

[Armosias]

Let's be honest, if to counter a move you must roll, this is everything but balanced.

[Hormly]

Let's be honest, if to counter a move you must roll, this is everything but balanced.

It's weird that after a year this still needs to be explained to people.