Ideas for destroying the Turtle Meta? | Forums

[Armosias]

Assassins and Light spam already rule the game, at least down in Mid-Tier, the only way to get an attack in sometimes is with Light attacks. Except now a couple others can join in with Openers. Deflect already grants guaranteed damage. Orochis, Berserkers, Aramushas, and Conqs can't spam all that easily because getting one block in stops their chain because it's a Light spam. Literally the only change that you've noted down is that Heavy attacks would actually be used. Which could actually be reduced by the fact that not all attacks from even Heavy heroes have Hyper Armor except for Shugoki's.

400 ms lights chains are not blockable and can only be parried. At least they are with LB and Conq. What I mean we won't be able To stop them in any way if we can't parry those 400ms lights, ad for the deflects, they'll guarantee damage as they do now, but only assassins have access to it, granting them a huge advantage. Only if Ubi doesn't touch other mechanics. Ad I said above removing parry is not impossible, but requires a terrible amount of work.

[pzea_469]

I think parrying is something that opens up defensive play. You bait your opponent into trying to parry and then punish. Removing this would just increase the amount of safe blocking. Parrying is taking a risk.

[LeviathanWard]

400 ms lights chains are not blockable and can only be parried. At least they are with LB and Conq. What I mean we won't be able To stop them in any way if we can't parry those 400ms lights, ad for the deflects, they'll guarantee damage as they do now, but only assassins have access to it, granting them a huge advantage. Only if Ubi doesn't touch other mechanics. Ad I said above removing parry is not impossible, but requires a terrible amount of work.

Umm... Lawbringer main over here, a little bit confused. I've blocked 400ms Light chains before (half of it was by getting lucky) because Guard Change is only about 100ms and the Light Chain is 400ms giving me about 300ms to react to their next attack. Also if you can't block it, then how in the **** are you expected to Parry it? Because either you're stating that you can't switch your guard fast enough, or that somehow a Light Chain becomes unblockable even if your guard is placed in the correct spot. Only one of those makes sense, but it also makes your argument fall apart.

Also Deflect doesn't work against Undodgeable attacks because first it requires a successful dodge. But yes, Deflect would need a change of some kind as well.

I think parrying is something that opens up defensive play. You bait your opponent into trying to parry and then punish. Removing this would just increase the amount of safe blocking. Parrying is taking a risk.

Not really? Parrying is the Defensive Play, and it only breaks it up because there are offensive options right now.

Meanwhile I actually addressed the issue of Feinting and its relation to Parrying. That relation is the fact that Parrying is good against opening any defense. You can use it to bait out a dodge, and if all characters got an attack out of feinting, you could also bait them into switching their guard.

Because right now, Parrying is one of the safest options, mostly due to the fact that when the Guard Widget flashes, you are still capable of parrying, but the opponent is no longer capable of Feinting out of the attack. You'll have a smaller window to Parry for sure, but within that window Parrying is 100% Safe. So not even Feinting is a guaranteed way of getting a hit in past Parrying.

[Tyrjo]

Removing the parry from the game would be the same as removing a tire from a car.

[Jazz117Volkov]

Parrying isn't really an issue anymore, it's actually very punishable, feint and guardbreak. EZ. In a way, it's made turtles worse because there's so little reason to parry, feinting is becoming a dead mechanic. It's why the "assassin meta" happened; faster attacks, deflects, and in some cases, hyper armour, all allow you to overpower an aggressor, all you have to do is wait for them to attack. Interrupt them with speed, guardbreak their heavies, dodge attack, etc. It's why Berserker is considered the strongest character right now. Maybe with the exception of Conq. but again, conq is now built around punishing reactions without using the parry mechanic; specifically, conq. has unblockable soft cancels that guarantee damage if you try to parry them.

[LightUpTheEyes]

Personally, how I would rework the Parry system is not to take it out, but give the person being parried a chance to parry back. The way this could work is that when your heavy attack gets parried the system would then give you a chance at parrying back at the normal speed and timing that parrying usually is. However, getting your lite attack parried would cut the reaction time you need for the “parry back” in half. Increase the stamaina drain from being parried/parrying and increase the damage delt by a missing a “parry back” attempt.

There could also be a system in place that for every time consecutive (back and forth) parries happen the reaction time you have to “parry back” decreases.

After the reworks, rebalances and everything that takes priority, the animation team could then work on the animations for “parry back” system making it look more natural and smooth when getting into the parry battles this system would set in place.

I believe doing this would decrease the frustration and hopelessness of getting hit by guaranteed attacks while getting the feeling that more control is in your hand.

To anyone who read this,
This is just my opinion of how parrying and “turtleing” could be solved. If you like this idea and have any other ideas that could add to this please feel free to share it share it with me.

To anyone who disagrees with this,
Please don’t tell me this idea is dumb or wouldn’t work without at least telling me your thoughts about what your concerns with it would be. Disagreements will happen, but discussions about different opinions don’t always have to be rude.

All of us (or most of us at least) on this forum love this game and want to see it constantly improve, any and all ideas are welcome here and hopefully the developers see them all and judge accordingly on how to implement them into our game.

Happy Saturday my friends, see you on the battlefield!

[Knight_Raime]

Turtle meta hasn't existed since season 5's parry changes. What's more effective now is safe/aggressive offense.
Defense is still strong. And likely always will be because blocking is a passive action compared to literally every other fighter out there.

But measures can be taken to increase the skill ceiling for defending yourself. Which indirectly nerfs defensive play. These would be:

~fixing the buffering issue
~Adding varied MS increments.
~adding proper block strings.

First one makes attacks slower than they should be in combo. That's why someone like gladiator has 600ms lights in combo even though their supposed to be 500ms. Adding in varied ms increments means you'd have to learn the speeds of each hero individually. Instead of current where you learn 3-4 speeds total for majority of the roster and their moves. And proper block strings means the fight doesn't reset to neutral in most cases by blocking a single attack. The player would have to be able to defend against the second or even third follow up in order to truly be safe and reset the fight back to neutral.

Removing parry is just a dumb idea. And if parrying was such an easy/no brainer thing to do in the first place everyone would be parrying everything. But that's not even the case for top tier play even during the defensive meta. In fact in top play you still see less parrying compared to average play.

[TheTool85]

Hmm...
I honestly never experienced any turtle meta which sure is because I dont't duel and play low tier dominion only.
But i think this threat here is interesting so i hope i'm allowed to throw in a suggestion i have about parry and the turtle meta.
What if there were 3 types of parry?
Type 1: the perfect parry.
This would allow the punishment as it is already. Ad to this an all directional heavy off of a light parry. Of course the window to reach this should be very tight.
Type 2: the just in time parry.
It will reset the fight to neutral only.
This is ment as a replacement to backdodges as it now confirms more than just... well... backdodge lol
Type 3: the messed up parry.
If you really missed the timing for a parry, it should knock you down. Not sure how to make it animation wise, nor do I have a clue if this knock down should take you OOS ( maybe too much?).
But this would at least punish you for a failed punishment more, than current meta does. ( sounds strange haha )

Just my opinon. Please don't rip me apart.

[Armosias]

Because either you're stating that you can't switch your guard fast enough, or that somehow a Light Chain becomes unblockable even if your guard is placed in the correct spot.

Also Deflect doesn't work against Undodgeable attacks because first it requires a successful dodge. But yes, Deflect would need a change of some kind as well.

This is exactly what I meant: most of the Orochis I faced post-rework managed to land those 400 ms lights although I was switching, the stagger effect caused by the hit preventing me from switching guard in time, while the parry does not need any setup time, now I can't really say if it's the hero more than the servers, or my hardware being nasty. On the same pleasure I trained in arena to find how in heavens I can escape Warden's SB light spamming, world in arena but not in actual gameplay sooo.. I guess having 19ms towards google just isn't enough, or Europe servers are not as good as I expect them to be !

[LeviathanWard]

Alright for everyone absolutely INSISTING that Parrying isn't still in the Meta...

Then why does the Meta currently revolve around how many Openers and Mix-Ups there are? Why does it revolve around who has the fastest attacks? WHY DOES THE ENTIRE META LITERALLY REVOLVE AROUND NOT HAVING TO DEAL WITH PARRYING?

All of you are telling me how Parrying is punishable, even though all that all of you are telling me is "and here's how we don't deal with Parrying" or "and here's how exactly ONE CHARACTER punishes you if you try to parry him." Which all that you're telling me is "Parrying is something that nobody likes, so here's all the ways we found to avoid it as much as possible."

But by all means, if Parrying isn't a problem. Trying going a whole day just using your character's combos. No mix-ups. No soft-cancels. Try to use the basic building blocks of your character's move set, and tell me how well it goes. Tell me how many times you got punished for just trying to use all that your character can actually do. Because after all, in pretty much every other fighting game, the basic hit combos are always built to be reliable, and yes advanced techniques would still beat it, they're at least useable still. So let's see if For Honor can pass this test.

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Personally, how I would rework the Parry system is not to take it out, but give the person being parried a chance to parry back. The way this could work is that when your heavy attack gets parried the system would then give you a chance at parrying back at the normal speed and timing that parrying usually is. However, getting your lite attack parried would cut the reaction time you need for the “parry back” in half. Increase the stamaina drain from being parried/parrying and increase the damage delt by a missing a “parry back” attempt.

There could also be a system in place that for every time consecutive (back and forth) parries happen the reaction time you have to “parry back” decreases.

The problem that I'm seeing here is at that point it just becomes back and forth and hasn't really done much to actually allow a character to use their entire move set still. But it would at least make the Parrying a bit more of a contest. Especially since you would be able to pick the direction of the new attack and it wouldn't just be back and forth ping pong on the same guard direction.

Could probably make for some pretty heated moments.

Hmm...
I honestly never experienced any turtle meta which sure is because I dont't duel and play low tier dominion only.
But i think this threat here is interesting so i hope i'm allowed to throw in a suggestion i have about parry and the turtle meta.
What if there were 3 types of parry?
Type 1: the perfect parry.
This would allow the punishment as it is already. Ad to this an all directional heavy off of a light parry. Of course the window to reach this should be very tight.
Type 2: the just in time parry.
It will reset the fight to neutral only.
This is ment as a replacement to backdodges as it now confirms more than just... well... backdodge lol
Type 3: the messed up parry.
If you really missed the timing for a parry, it should knock you down. Not sure how to make it animation wise, nor do I have a clue if this knock down should take you OOS ( maybe too much?).
But this would at least punish you for a failed punishment more, than current meta does. ( sounds strange haha )

Just my opinon. Please don't rip me apart.

You are allowed your opinion,and this is a fine idea that you've put thought into. Albeit it still doesn't solve the dilemma that most characters still can't use a lot of their combos, though putting them OOS on top of Knock Down does seem like a bit much.