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https://www.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveForHonor/comments/8sdlnk/shinobi_damage_nerf_and_rework_ideas_updated/

 I'm looking for support on the positive changes that will help my main. So here's an updated version.First. Let's talk about damage. As of right now, where Shinobi is at , he is weak overall, so that's why I think his damage is justified. But everyone is saying his damage is over-tuned. I kind of agree but there are changes that need to happen to justify lowering his damage. And these changes need to come from the perspective of an experienced shinobi main so that he isn't nerfed into the ground, again.The objective of these changes, is to make him feel a little less cheesy, but also give him incentive to use his kit and stay in the fight.
  • DAMAGE. The topic we need to find common ground on so people will hear me out. Shinobi should have high damage relative to other assassins imo. I don't think any of his initial attacks should take a damage nerf. But I can agree with his confirmed light attacks being less. If I say 5 damage, his double light will be 19 total, which is less than orochi. But his heavy will be 35. I agree with his heavy damage being 35 total. That's on par with orochi's top heavy. But I disagree with the light attack damage. Orochi's double light is 22. I think shinobi's should at least match that and not drop any lower. So I suggest 17 on the first light attack and 5 on the second, as opposed to 14 and 10 like it is now. Overall being 22 instead of 24. Keep in mind that kensei has 20 damage top light. So we're getting into the area of one light almost being as good as two.
  • A light heavy chain. This will give him an alternative option to the confirmed light and trade the confirmed light damage for a chained sickle rain heavy and mix-up potential to keep his light chain going. Light feint light, feint light, feint heavy, etc. As long as he feints the second attack and doesn't take the confirmed hit, he should be able to continue his chain. Maybe implement soft feints on this second heavy in the chain. The second heavy should also have increased speed to allow for a better OOS punish (#11).
  • Single dodge chains. Heavy and light attack chains on a single dodge. This is important to fully allowing shinobi to use his mobility and he is too weak on his dodge attacks, which are all interrupted by guard-break, and are slowed and taxed by stamina by double dodge. The purpose of the double dodge should be to throw off the timing and instigate a reaction.
  • Ranged GB. No Sickle rain after a ranged GB, instead, just a regular heavy light chain for 35. The sickle rain after ranged GB is cheesy because it allows for an instant kill and is sadly his optimal play right now, and out of his character. It does nothing for shinobi's renown to get the assist, and is a cheap kill on the enemy.
  • Ranged Attack Punish. Instead of falling to the ground on ranged counters, he is pulled in (on his feet) for a confirmed light attack punish. It wouldn't be hard to implement this animation as it's the same as his ranged GB bringing someone in. He's the only character than eats top heavies and can be insta killed for getting a heavy attack parried. So confirm a punish at ANY range, in exchange for a less extreme punish. Imagine fighting someone and an annoying shinobi is hitting you from range, bait the attack and counter it, and instead of just falling to the ground 50 feet away and being safe, he will be pulled directly to you, with no escape from punish. Feeds your revenge, you get to punish, it's a change for the better of both worlds and will make ranged fighting less annoying. Maybe the only exception here should be the ranged GB, I wouldn't care if he still fell to the ground on that one. But the heavies are too punishable or not punishable enough. This ranged parry change of staying on your feet would also justify his terrible recovery and free guard break from blocking his ranged heavies, which I think should actually stay to get a better punish on ranged attacks that are used too close or throwing them after missing a kick. So confirmed light from parrying at any range, and free GB for blocking at close range. And he can still fall to the ground on the ranged GB counter, that can stay the same because GB's are supposed to be safer than throwing an attack, so he will be safe with that move from extreme range but also be extremely punished for misusing it at medium to close range. It's also a cool animation and should stay in the game somewhere.
  • Accidental Deflects. You shouldn't get punished if it's on accident. I agree with making his deflect only do damage after an input of kick or light attack and make it in line with the rest of the heroes. I think his deflect should work as if he's out of stamina and it does nothing. But then only launches after a light attack or kick input and is safe from i-frames until after the input is complete. He should also have instant recovery after this.
  • Deflect i-frames Needed. His deflect is heavily tracked, it needs i-frames (invincibility frames). For the 700ms duration of the deflect, heavy attacks from other players will do a 180 degree turn and hit you on the other side of your teleport. So accidental deflects can be annoying for both parties. The deflect should be safe with i-frames up until the point where you input an attack. After a deflect, the i-frames should end after the light attack and allow you to recover instantly from the light to defend, but the deflect kick into heavy should be the punish that is unsafe from external attacks. So after the kick input, you should be unsafe. These i-frames should make up for duration of the animation. You shouldn't be more vulnerable on a shinobi's deflect than Pk's deflect for example. She can punish and instantly recover because it is fast. Her punish is 500ms compared to his 700+ms. He should also have instant recovery after a deflect light or kick. After you deflect and light attack, you can be GB'd and that shouldn't be the case.
  • THE BACK FLIP. The idea here is to exchange a GB punish for i-frame or a hidden stance property. Everyone is annoyed because they can't punish the kick with a GB when he back-flips. But this is also one of the main ways he gets his baited GB's into sickle rain. The kick is reactable and is just as safe for the enemy as it is for shinobi. The backflip needs some kind of useful property. Right now, it's safe from GB, but it's heavily tracked by everything else, especially external attacks. So my suggestion is to allow a window in the startup of the back flip where shinobi can be guard-broke, but exchange that punish for a hidden stance property on the flip. So you can GB the startup, but external attacks will whiff. The key to this is that you should be able to punish the kick, if shinobi makes a mistake. The kick should still be somewhat safe because it's not very effective. So if you kick, and then wait to react, you should be able to counter the GB, but the GB should be untechable in the startup of the backflip. Like if you guard break before shinobi's hands hit the ground on the flip, then the GB is confirmed. But if you are too late, then you should be punishable by the ranged GB. So there just needs to be risk/reward. This will make him more punishable in a 1v1 setting, but make him more elusive in group fights and the back-flip should be his safe retreat and not get tracked by external heavies and also his set-up to punish whiffed attacks. I think when his hands touch the ground is the perfect moment to end the GB punish window.
  • ZONE ATTACK. Another big one. HIS ZONE. It's absolute trash and the worst zone in the game next to centurion. For the love of god please allow him to cancel his zone. It's a free parry and you take more damage than you dish out. This one is a no-brainier, but very important.
  • Soft Feints? Consider adding soft feints into his kit somewhere, but I don't see it as necessary. Maybe add a soft feint GB with the zone cancel or on his heavies. He doesn't need any light soft feints imo, but I wouldn't complain if he got some.
  • Out Of Stamina Punish. Compare shinobi to orochi who get's 70 damage on OOS punish and revenge throws. Shinobi gets the current 40 damage no matter what, suggesting to nerfing it to 35. Whether it's a GB, OOS or renvege throw, wall splat, it's all 40 damage. I think shinobi should get 2 heavies on his OOS punish to confirm this. So 30+35=65 plus maybe the sickle rain follow up, or not, idk. Shinobi should be able to capitalize on stamina punishes. Season 2 was the introduction of characters that could do just that and I think centurtion should be modeled a similar way. This is something that needs to change especially if shinobi gets a damage nerf. Shinobi's first heavy should stay the same speed, but his second heavy should be sped up. This will give him more options to get into sickle rain if a light/heavy chain is added and add more speed to his heavies when he rolls in for an attack.
  • Ranged Attack Chains. Ranged attack should not being blocked should not stop the chain of attack. I am rethinking this one. If his sickle rain heavy has increased speed then there wont be a need for this change imo.
  • The Kick. 500ms is a good speed for the kick. Side kick should be 500ms like the forward. The overall double dodge kick is just too slow. It's a bad counter tool. It's a bad opener. And it's bad trading tool. It can do all of these things, but is inefficient in everyone of them. He should have the option of kicking on a single dodge or a double dodge, the startup of the kick itself is react-able, so shinobi can dodge as many times as he wants and not truly force you to move. The point here to to be able to use your mobility to change up the timing of your attack and instigate the enemy to mistime a dodge. Shinobi already has this aspect but he has to either double dodge or quad dodge kick to throw off the timing. It would just streamline this aspect and make the kick better as an opener and a countering tool by making the overall move faster and less anticipated. The side dodge kick would basically become as effective of a counter as wardens shoulder bash but with more timing options. So there's a couple ways this could play out. Punishing the kick on prevention or punishing it after dodging the kick or playing it safe.


  • Punishing the kick on prevention or interruption would be a pseudo 50/50, and punishing the kick with dodge would also be a pseudo 50/50. Or you can just play it safe and react to the kick and dodge safely, but if you want to punish it, you will risk a pseudo 50/50.
  • For example, you feint a heavy, and shinobi single side dodges for a kick, a heavy feint into light attack should interrupt the kick and punish on prevention. However if shinobi double dodges, then he will dodge the follow up light attack after the feint and land the kick, so the correct prevention punish on the double dodge kick would be feint into GB. But shinobi could also mix up the dodge attack with a light or heavy.
  • Dodge timing will be more significant and shinobi will capitalize on mistakes and mistimed reactions. Dodging the kick on reaction would be the safest move and would opt out of all 3 options of his dodge attacks. It would dodge the light attack or kick and the heavy attack is slow enough to still block after the dodge. From here you can have another pseudo 50/50 opportunity to punish the kick.
  • Punish kick mix-up on dodge reaction. If shinobi misses the kick and begins to back-flip, a guard break should interrupt the start-up of this, however if you are late you can be punished with the ranged GB in your recovery. Shinobi could also not back-flip and possibly throw the ranged heavy, which you could then parry, or block and GB. But if shinobi whiffs the kick and then reacts and defends he can still counter the GB. However if you pre-dodge the kick on prediction you can punish with a GB. Similar to conq's bash. Your guaranteed punish will come from a mistake on his part, or a correct prediction or read on your part. If you're mad about this you need to realize that kick is punishable on read and safe to dodge. If you don't want to risk being punished, then don't risk punishing. That simple.
  • The safe and patient way to play against him is to react to the kick and make him throw out an unsafe attack, you would still punish the kick on prevention or reaction, but not without risks.

This ultimately keeps some circumstantially safe ways to use the kick, but also gives it a good risk/reward. Note that this may require altering the hyper armor on kick, it has been delayed in the past so the kick startup is interruptible with a light attack, but may need further tweaking or removal. I do still think he should have armor on his kick just before it lands so that he can chain it to the hyper armor back-flip and use it as an escape tool in group fights.

The conclusion. Shinobi will be less annoying to fight, punishable at any range and for making mistakes. But now he will have more incentive to use his ranged kit. The whole basis of shinobi's play style is in and out ranged and mobile ability. But his ranged attacks are shut down and his mobility is easily interrupted. These will change that. Make shinobi punished more often, but punished less extremely at the same time. Give him a healthy risk reward that allows him to use his kit and allows the opponent to punish reasonably.
I am defensive about shinobi, he's my main and he's weak overall and has never been in an OP spot other than maybe the first 2 weeks of launch. I hope to get some support on the positive changes here so I can actually justify a damage nerf.
Thoughts?


https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...ideas_updated/