Parrying is what's breaking this game. | Forums

[LeviathanWard]

There, try #2, let's see if a more direct title works. Alright, now I'll do you all a favor and put the TL;DR up here.

TL;DR
Parrying breaks the Class System because Heavies aren't allowed to function like they should.
Slow and Powerful = Slow and Useless.
Parrying as a feature cannot be fixed. As the concept of how it functions is inherently a flaw in this type of game.

Now then to get to the heart of the issue. For Honor cannot function with a class-based game if all that is ever going to dominate with almost no downsides is the Assassin class, and the reason for that is incredibly simple. Everyone in the game has the Ultimate Defense.

To break down why this is a problem, let's go over what each of the classes is supposed to be.

Vanguard: A balance between Maneuverability, Damage, Defense, and Health. Their kit is straightforward and fairly versatile.

Heavy: A character more biased towards Defense, Health, and Damage. Maneuverability is almost thrown out of the window in most cases. Their kit is meant to be very direct, putting pressure on the opponent through crushing blows, even at the cost of speed.

Assassin: A character more biased towards Maneuverability, and Damage. They're meant to be Glass Cannons, smack them too hard and they die far before any other fighter, but when they put the hurt on you, it hurts. While not always the fastest hero, they are always at least quick, and either their attacks do lots of damage, or they can dish out attacks rapidly. All of this comes at the cost of defense.

Except... when it doesn't.

Because of the Parry System, any character can block any attack that isn't a Guaranteed Hit. Not only can they block the attack, they can punish the attacker, and since this Parry system is a result of Reaction Speed and nothing to do with the character you play, even the most fragile character can deflect powerful hefty blows from a Heavy character with no problem. (Not talking about the Deflect Mechanic which is nullified by Un-Dodgeable moves)

So, those Assassin characters who are supposed to be sacrificing defensive options for Maneuverability and better Offensive options? Nope, they have the best defense in the game, just like everyone else. This leaves the Assassin Class of heroes as a group of heroes with little to no cons other than a small health pool. They often have diverse offensive mechanics, their job is to output more damage than anyone else, they generally move faster and have an easier time dodging and getting around than any other class, and they can just block any attack because reflexes make for the best defense in this game, hands down.

So long as Parrying is a core part of the gameplay, this problem will never be fixed. It can't be. No matter how much you nerf Parrying, unless you break it down to the point where it's not even Parrying anymore, it will break the game.

The only option to salvage this, is to take it out of the game for everything except PvE. This mechanic is great in PvE, it lets you feel like a badass taking on whole groups of soldiers. You're the Hero of this story, and your ability to block literally any attack that isn't a guaranteed hit is a sign of that. But in PvP... no.

Now then before you talk about the idea of Un-Parryable moves. They're pointless. Functionally, they're pointless in fixing this problem. Because face it, every single high level tactic in this game, revolves around getting around the Parry mechanic. We already don't like it, we go out of our way to come up with so many different ways to get around it. Guaranteed Hits, Feint Games, The Fastest Moves you can get. Is it faster than 500m/s? Trash move, easily parried.

So now throw Un-Parryable moves into that mix, nothing changes. We get a new meta revolving around Un-Parryable moves... that's it. Nothing's functionally changed. Heavies still can't do their job of being Slow but Powerful. You've added some new moves or changed up a couple. So what? We're still just dancing around the fact that none of us want to deal with the Parry mechanic.

So it might as well just be removed and re-balance the game around the fact Unblockable Attacks are now truly unblockable, Assassin characters can no longer completely shut down a Heavy's chain with ease. Sure the Meta's still going to revolve around Guaranteed Hits and Mind Games, but now moves faster than 500m/s are actually viable, getting Hyper Armor for a slow but powerful attack actually means something now. Heavy characters can finally do their job. And best of all, Assassin's can still do their job. They still have all of their maneuverability, their diverse offensive movesets are still diverse, and their damage output is still the same.

As a Lawbringer Main, my life practically revolves around parries so I can get that sweet Guaranteed Zone or Light... but that's not how the game should be played. I can't actually use my combos, because my Unblockable is slow enough that it always gets parried, so it's only good for a feint. My only other combo might as well not exist because the heavies in it still aren't fast enough to clear most people's parry timing. So all I've got are my shoves, my parries, and my longarm if I get into a gank situation where I'm not the focus.

So as much as I rely on it, I recognize that the Parry system has to go.

[Camemberto]

99% Agreed.

If the parry system goes, there is no real way of turning a fight around other than dodging, which would leave assassins at a huge advantage. Also you would only see unblockables all the time, add more hyper armor and the game will be more about spamming than ever before.
But the parry system is indeed broken. I just watched a video called "fighting the BEST RAIDER IN THE WORLD"... it was a parryfest and VERY boring to watch...

Would you care to read my suggestions here? What I'm suggesting is to KEEP the parry system in place, but change it so much so that it becomes a PURELY defensive tool. Along with some changes to the blocking mechanic as well:

In no particular order, but numbered for better quotability:
1. Slow down light attacks, to make them more reactable /blockable again -> having your own lights blocked wouldn't be so punishing as discussed in 2 and 3.
2. No superior block on light attacks -> light chains would continue when blocked, so one can keep the pressure on, while both players keep in control of their character.
3. Light parry only guarantees light attack -> because of how "slow" they are now. You can also dish them out with too much fear of being heavily punished.
4. Chip damage on all blocked heavy attacks (25% maybe?) -> to lift them over just being slower light attacks + makes them feel more powerful and overall viable to use.
5. Heavy parry guarantees nothing, but negates damage, stops chains. Basically exactly like normally blocking a light attack as is. PURELY defensive.
6. No softfeints on unblockables, only hardfeints -> less cheese. You can still open up opponents with feints, but they won't be as quick and unreactable.
7. GB only guarantees light attack -> debatable. But I think it would work well in the context of the other changes.
8. less hitstagger/stun -> So to be able to block followup attacks if the first on the chain hit. Less guaranteed BS + more reactability and control over the character.
9. speed up/shorten the parry animations to make the fight more fluent -> basically already touched on this. light parries are as quick as heavy parries and heavy parries are as quick as light blocks.
10: parrying unblockables still guarantees light -> to mitigate UB spam and because blocking isn't an option.

This is a whole revamp of the fighting systems and aims to make the defense tools more available, while making them less viable. Especially less viable for offense, which was exactly the cause of the turle/defense meta. (Defense was a better offense than offense). My suggestion separate offense and defense more from one another, making it easier to achieve balance overall. What do you think?

[Eisenwolf.]

As a Lawbringer Main, my life practically [...]

We all know that and we know that THIS has to be changed because THAT is the issue. W8t for it to happen, just a little bit longer ...

[DFQN1]

I would suggest a radical solution. They need to remove free damage off a parry.
After you parry someone you should be able to attack first, sure, but your attacks can be blocked and parried.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I doubt they will remove it, but I think that instead of guaranteed damage, parrying could give some buffs (faster attacks for 6 seconds, access to special attacks, longer dodges, etc depending on character). It would potentially lead to big damage, but nothing guaranteed. However, this would further buff assassins and their dodges, deflects and dodge attacks.

[LeviathanWard]

99% Agreed.

Would you care to read my suggestions here? What I'm suggesting is to KEEP the parry system in place, but change it so much so that it becomes a PURELY defensive tool.

I'm sorry, but even with the Parry nerfs or changes, anything faster than 500ms will always be blocked. Slow down the Light Attacks and no one will ever land a hit. Parry has to be removed, because Parry as a Defensive Tool at all is what keeps Heavy characters from actually doing their job, and gates any move faster than 500ms, literally any move that takes longer than half a second. In every single video that I see, if a move is something like 650ms then it's considered trash, it'll be hard to land it if at all, and that's a major problem.

Besides, you can still turn a fight around with a good Revenge Mode, because on something like that, I can still see attacks getting their Auto-Parry (as the only place where parry remains) and knockdown upon activating the mode. Plus there's still the fact that when you get attacked, you still get a brief period of All-Block. You also get alerts when an enemy is using an unblockable from a certain direction. Albeit there is still the problem of Flanked Guard Break, but not even Parries could stop those.

Also keep in mind that something Slow and Powerful is something that even another Heavy character can dodge. Everyone can dodge it, the point is to utilize strategy to get your enemy into a point where they can't dodge it, or where they won't be expecting it. Hyper armor won't help much here if your opponent just backs out of your range. But under the Parry System, even if you have an enemy backed into a corner, and you unleash your powerful move, because it's slow, even if they can't block it, they parry it just fine. Why even bother having it in the game if the one place where such a move would be good isn't even good then?

Also, Undodgeable attacks exist, and more can be added in. Person's dodging too often? Throw them for a loop by chaining into an Undodgeable where Blocking will keep it from hitting.Or just feint them like normal. But yes, that is another problem, for another thread.

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We all know that and we know that THIS has to be changed because THAT is the issue. W8t for it to happen, just a little bit longer ...

No... I really don't see this being discussed... at all. Everyone just complains about the viability of attacks with their attack speed, but never addressing the main issue. Attacks are either too fast to actually block (because slower moves are punished with parrying) or they complain that their attacks are too slow and so they can't be used (because of parrying).

You're talking like this is something that everybody frequently brings up, but it isn't... at all. So if it isn't talked about, then the For Honor Devs won't realize that it's a problem, because this is the first fighting game they've ever made. They admit this, constantly. It won't just fix itself.

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I would suggest a radical solution. They need to remove free damage off a parry.
After you parry someone you should be able to attack first, sure, but your attacks can be blocked and parried.

This isn't addressing the issue, it doesn't matter what you get from the parry, certain attacks are just straight up unuseable because of Parrying. We're not focusing on what a Parry lets you do, we're focusing on what a Parry prevents you from doing.

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I doubt they will remove it, but I think that instead of guaranteed damage, parrying could give some buffs (faster attacks for 6 seconds, access to special attacks, longer dodges, etc depending on character). It would potentially lead to big damage, but nothing guaranteed. However, this would further buff assassins and their dodges, deflects and dodge attacks.

This isn't solving the issue. This is just adjusting the after-effects of the issue. The issue here is that the Parry system is a huge gate that prevents slow attacks from ever hitting, thus making the Heavy character class almost redundant.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

If you want slow and useful attacks, there are examples for that. The kensei top heavy, the zerker top heavy finishers, the highlander offensive heavies, and the conq heavies are all slow. However, they all have something that makes it more difficult than just parrying it. The kensei can feint it into practically anything, and if you want a top heavy parry, one of the options will hit you. The zerker can feint into lights and dash lights. The highlander can feint it into a grab, a kick or an offensive light. The conq can feint into the shield bash. You are taking a risk when you try to parry these attacks, because the soft feint coming out is hitting before the parry attempt would hit. If you wait for the soft feint and be ready to parry/dodge it, and you throw out the slow attack, it hits. Lots of high tier characters can work like this.

The problem is with characters like shugoki and how limited his moveset is: his unblockable heavy, as long as glowing orange, is a free parry. He has soft feint option, namely the demon's embrace, but it's so slow that it can dodged even with a feint without a problem, and it's basically death if you miss a demon's embrace in a duel. Slow attacks need at least some threatening alternative, like a direction change at the end of the animation, to be viable. That's the real problem. It would really dumb down the game if you could just throw out anything and not being punished if it is parried, and it wouldn't even help the heavies the most, slow characters usually have better punishes (or they should have).

[LeviathanWard]

If you want slow and useful attacks, there are examples for that. The kensei top heavy, the zerker top heavy finishers, the highlander offensive heavies, and the conq heavies are all slow. However, they all have something that makes it more difficult than just parrying it. The kensei can feint it into practically anything, and if you want a top heavy parry, one of the options will hit you. The zerker can feint into lights and dash lights. The highlander can feint it into a grab, a kick or an offensive light. The conq can feint into the shield bash. You are taking a risk when you try to parry these attacks, because the soft feint coming out is hitting before the parry attempt would hit. If you wait for the soft feint and be ready to parry/dodge it, and you throw out the slow attack, it hits. Lots of high tier characters can work like this.

The problem is with characters like shugoki and how limited his moveset is: his unblockable heavy, as long as glowing orange, is a free parry. He has soft feint option, namely the demon's embrace, but it's so slow that it can dodged even with a feint without a problem, and it's basically death if you miss a demon's embrace in a duel. Slow attacks need at least some threatening alternative, like a direction change at the end of the animation, to be viable. That's the real problem. It would really dumb down the game if you could just throw out anything and not being punished if it is parried, and it wouldn't even help the heavies the most, slow characters usually have better punishes (or they should have).

Or you know, For Honor could just do what the rest of the Fighting Game/Any Class-Based Game industry does and have Slow but Powerful be their own downside... THEY'RE SLOW. That's how Slow characters get punished in literally any other game. If you don't play your cards right as Aganos in Killer Instinct, you get punished to hell and back. if you play as Tremor or as Ferra and Torr in Mortal Kombat, you better know your character's strengths and weaknesses or else you're going to get your *** kicked in higher tier battles.

Because you know what you just said? "The only way that Slow attacks actually work is by not using them." They're such bad moves (I have yet to actually get hit by a Berserker top heavy) that the only way you can get them to be used is if your opponent doesn't believe that you're actually going to use one of them, otherwise the only way to get use out of them is to feint out of them. But here's the thing, those Mind Games don't work the best at top levels of play where you have people that can Parry light attacks.

Also, no? Heavies most certainly do not have the best punishes, if they did then you'd be seeing them at the top of player usage, but they're not. Lawbringer, Conqueror, Warlord, Shugoki? They're all at the bottom.

And lastly... and most importantly... why in the world do you think that I'm talking about not making Parries punishable? I'm talking about removing Parries all together. None of them, zip, zilch. It's gone from the game, meaning that everyone's defensive options are now limited to their actual guards and how strong they are.

[Camemberto]

I'm sorry, but even with the Parry nerfs or changes, anything faster than 500ms will always be blocked. Slow down the Light Attacks and no one will ever land a hit. Parry has to be removed, because Parry as a Defensive Tool at all is what keeps Heavy characters from actually doing their job, and gates any move faster than 500ms, literally any move that takes longer than half a second. In every single video that I see, if a move is something like 650ms then it's considered trash, it'll be hard to land it if at all, and that's a major problem.

No. This is simply not true. If it actually were the case, that EVERY 500+ms attack was blocked or parried consistently, then the game just wouldn't even exist. 95% of all attacks are slower than 500ms and not all of them are blocked or parried. Not even close. That's just a lie. People make mistakes, people get tricked. No one plays 100% perfect. By your logic, one would either have to have any light attack so fast that it can't be reacted to (wich is ****), or just remove blocking completely, because every light attack, that can be reacted to, would be absolutely useless, if you can just block it, duh... Let's remove dodging as well, because attacks are just useless, if everyone can just dodge them. See where this is going?

People don't parry 100% of the time, if you remove parrying completely, you will lower the skill ceiling so hard, it will actually become the floor. The game would be so boring as well. I agree that parrying is overpowered, but that doesn't mean it has to be removed completely. A nerf (as I have suggested) would work much better.

Do you actually REALIZE, what the problem with parrying is? Do you? It's NOT the fact, that it exists in the first place. It's the fact, that parrying, which should be an exclusively DEFENSIVE maneuver, is WAY TOO STRING at being an OFFENSIVE tool. People don't want to be hit, so they don't throw an attack, because an enemy parry would grant the enemy free damage. So turtle. If enemy parries didn't grant free damage, then attacking is basically risk free. So why not attack? Games nowadays are won by whomever pulls of more parries, because it's save damage, you literally WIN BY DEFENSE... Parries should be considered advanced blocks and NOT grant free damage, then everything would work out just fine.

Also what's your solution, just remove parries and that's it?

For me it seems like you want the parry removed, because you can't pull them off and constantly lose to people who parry all of your attacks. Sure removing parries would put you two on equal grounds, but skill should still dominate the game. If you NERFED the parry, you would be able to survive for much longer, because their parries would put you two back at neutral instead of you losing health every time. ALSO if your opponent only blocks instead of parrying, they take chip damage as well, so heavy attacks are nowhere nere useless.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I think that heavies hit people easier if they can parry lights. Because if you fool them into thinking you are throwing a light, they will try to parry earlier and the heavy comes through. If you feint the top heavy into a light with zerker three times, and then the opponent waits for it, that top heavy will connect. Or you throw out a few zones with pk, and if the opponent tries to parry but you throw a left heavy, it will connect, since the opponent's guard will open up. While there are people with fast reaction, the human brain has limits, and the best players are the best players because they can read their opponents (I hit them with heavies the most actually, they always wait for a light).