Orochi rework = me quit the game | Forums

[Desu_Vulthala]

This is not some dramatic or rage post, I am being entirely honest about this. I also did not wish to just post this in orochi feedback because I don't want it to be lost in sea of false claims that orochi is actually good now, which is well, anything but truth.

Let me start with saying that I don't play the game as much as I used to but I waited for this rework for a long, long time. It was very easy to figure out that orochi was bottom tier character pretty much shortly after release. Then he got more nerfs, and more nerfs, and guy was just trash. So needless to say, this character being my main, I waited for this rework for so long, and after seeing what an amazing job was done with kensei, that character really became great, I was excited. Thats till rework actually came out. I mained orochi but of course played number of other characters, some as much as him really but that character always held a special spot.

So rework comes out and I am left confused, was this supposed to be a good thing? How is anyone seeing this as a good rework? While I am here contemplating if orochi was actually nerfed or buffed, yes, I see it being that bad, and if orochi was buffed, then well, it's just not enough to make him actually good.

Lets get this out of the way, we all know that any character without bash or unblockable that they call easily pull it is going to be worse than others. There is one exception, Peacekeeper but we will get to why shortly. Look at shugoki, aramusha, and orochi, all basically lowest of the low. Still, bashes and unblockables aside, I will explain what makes orochi a terrible character.

What makes orochi as bad as I claim he is? What he got really in this rework. So his lights got faster but damage reduced, so nerf and a buff in same time, ok. His riptide got faster but lost damage so nerf and buff in same time, ok. His storm rush got buffed, his chain potential got buffed, and his dodge recovery cancels got in, mean while his double top light got nerfed and zone got nerfed, so over all I guess it's more of a buff but this still does not pull him out of trash bucket.

Why is orochi in trash bucket? Because for one, he lacks in options comparing to any other character, two, I can shut down nearly all of his options that he does have. Lets speak about this infamous storm rush. Whats that I heard? Great opener! I do not mean to make fun of people but lets really, really look into storm rush. So you can cancel it now any time, you can switch from which side it comes from any time, you can't however soft feint it into gb, which sucks but you know what makes that move entire useless? Try this with any character in the game. You see orochi storm rush? light attack, it beats storm rush every single time on any character. So there, one move that is so hyped is beaten, easily beaten.

Now what changed beside that? Pretty much nothing else, just keep your guard up top, and two out of three of his best moves are denied, top light and riptide. Orochi can attack on sides faster? well those sides are not that hard to react to either. If you do not try to parry, orochi can't do anything to you, at all. If he lands a chain and starts going, does anyone really think that this orochi will be able to finish that chain on decent skill level? Each game should be balanced on pro scene, thats where you will see highest skill and I can tell you right now, orochi is not a good pick there. Nothing about that character changed, he is still one of the worst characters in the game and since he just got rework, it seems like he will be left like that.

What you could do is get really good, storm rush cancel into parry, light chain into heavy feint into light, or light chain sides into top light finisher into zone. All of that sounds very nice on paper, but share same issues, it's hard to pull off, and little reward. Now I got no issues with hard but you know what is the flaw here? Why would I do this if I can pick literally any other character and do better? I saw a line up in game of me as orochi vs shaman, berserker, and peacekeeper, and I generally felt like what am I even doing here? Like what chances does this character has on same skill level? None, all of those characters are better, can do more, and get bigger reward for less effort, so why on gods earth would I play orochi?

Berserker - same light attacks speed but better feint game, better damage, better chains, hyper armor, unblockables, better ground punish.
Peacekeeper - bleeds, better light spam, same speed, better zone, better feints because you can actually soft feint into gb, better feats, better dodge attacks.
Shinobi - unblockable, just this one unblockable makes this character better than orochi because it is better than anything that orochi can do.
Gladiiator - unblockable bashes, unblockable attacks, bleeds, good zone, good light attack speed.
Shaman - do I even need to say it? better everything.

Then we got orochi - light attacks that are not better than any other assassin, zone that is good but not the best and is inferior to peace keeper, light attack spam that is inferior to berserker and peacekeeper for sure. Deflect is the one and only thing that orochi got better than most, except berserkers is still better because it applies in all situations. So why, why would I play orochi and not peace keeper and berserker? They do all he does but better and more.

If you really think that orochi is fine and does not need a bash or more options to open up opponents and does not need soft feints, imagine this. Warden' shoulder bash suddenly is removed and replaced with heavy dodge attack that does not give any follow ups at all, also can't be chained into from lights. Lawbringers superarmer and shove is gone, damage reduced. Gladiators punch and kicks are removed, and unblockables removed. Kensei's soft feints are removed, hyperarrmor removed, bash removed. Berserkers hyper armor and unblockables are removed. Any of these reworks sound good to you? No? To me neither but sadly these reworks would just bring them to orochi level options wise.

So yeah, there are other characters to play of course but that rework, because I waited on it for so long, just killed any desire I had to play this game. Whoever does play it, I do hope you enjoy it and maybe this insight will do some good, which I doubt. In mean time, stay honorable my friends and stay away from orochi.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I agree with most things, the orochi needs unblockable attacks. The pk does need it too (I think that the orochi is way better now than the pk, but I really don't have trouble shutting down everything he does, he just deals double damage compared to the pk). And everyone else having an easily reactable unblockable need new ones too (like the lawbringer, his unblockables from neutral are useless).

[Fox-Morotok]

I agree if you speak from a PC point of view.
From console and medium player ability, orochi have 90% of attack inbloccable because of speed.
PK is fast too but not have the same damage, the dodge attack is an havie but the orochi can guardbrake it while the PK can not do the same on orochi because her very very short range.

[UbiJurassic]

I agree with most things, the orochi needs unblockable attacks. The pk does need it too (I think that the orochi is way better now than the pk, but I really don't have trouble shutting down everything he does, he just deals double damage compared to the pk). And everyone else having an easily reactable unblockable need new ones too (like the lawbringer, his unblockables from neutral are useless).

Per our last Warrior's Den which included our the Team Lead of Game Design, Orochi and PK were intentionally not given Unblockables/Hyper Armor. This is because the PK's design is focused on mixups and the Orochi's design is focused on speed. The designs are done with way to vary the playstyle of individual heroes instead of shoehorning each character into a standardized way of play.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Per our last Warrior's Den which included our the Team Lead of Game Design, Orochi and PK were intentionally not given Unblockables/Hyper Armor. This is because the PK's design is focused on mixups and the Orochi's design is focused on speed. The designs are done with way to vary the playstyle of individual heroes instead of shoehorning each character into a standardized way of play.

I understand that, and I don't have trouble against players playing the game. The problem is with the ones not playing the game, just blocking everything (and in the lawbringer's case, shoving me back every time I try anything). Against them, even a hardly accessible unblockable, like a fourth heavy in a chain would be nice to open them up. I can block damage them down and eventually something will get through, but that's quite boring.

[Eisenwolf.]

Per our last Warrior's Den which included our the Team Lead of Game Design, Orochi and PK were intentionally not given Unblockables/Hyper Armor. This is because the PK's design is focused on mixups and the Orochi's design is focused on speed. The designs are done with way to vary the playstyle of individual heroes instead of shoehorning each character into a standardized way of play.

While this intention is valid, realization is not. Thinking about a character of speed, orochi wouldn't be my thought in first place - this would be aramusha.
If speed on orochi should be a thing, than it should also be a thing of having good reaction / decision making with a high reward for such successful activities. Like the abillity to counter or reverse a parry by quick input at a very short time window.
There is also no reason to not give him something to force an opponent to attack/parry or dodge his attacks so the orochi can use this to open him.

[Soldier_of_Dawn]

Per our last Warrior's Den which included our the Team Lead of Game Design, Orochi and PK were intentionally not given Unblockables/Hyper Armor. This is because the PK's design is focused on mixups and the Orochi's design is focused on speed. The designs are done with way to vary the playstyle of individual heroes instead of shoehorning each character into a standardized way of play.

While that sounds reasonable on paper it doesn't work so well in practice with turtles. With PK and Orochi on PC, turtles have nothing to fear since there is no equal alternative to unblockables. Unblockables for PK and Orochi don't have to be high damage heavies. They can be bashes or kicks (e.g. Tozen's Kick) that can eat away at stamina and guarantee a light attack at least. If you won't give them unblockables then give them an equal alternative which they are lacking right now, and that means we have a balancing issue. Speed works on console for the wrong reasons which happens to be the low framerate of 30FPS, causing many light attacks to be unreactable and that is a broken feature.

What we are after, more than anything, are legit openers for turtles to improve the flow of combat which was the reasoning behind the parry changes in Season 5. Otherwise PK and Orochi will be forced to turtle against certain players for the wrong reasons.

A final note, giving PK and Orochi unblockables won't change their playstyle, forcing them to be turtles would and does.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

Okay, I just had a match against a raider with my pk, and he refused to do anything at all, just moved his guard very fast without even reacting to anything (probably breaking apart the controller in the process), and he blocked everything this way. I tried everything: the light attacks obviously did not made it through, the dagger cancel was just blocked by his guardstance spam, and my heavy-guardbreak cancels were just countered easily. It took two minutes to block damage about 30-35, I ran out of stamina because I miscalculated it once in the two minutes, and then he started his mixups and took off half of my health. He killed me once, and he left in the second round when he mistook one of my top heavies as a dagger cancel and failed to parry it, but it was probably one of the most frustrating thing I had in this game.

WE NEED AN UNBLOCKABLE! A third heavy, only from the top direction for 25 damage would be nice enough. I am not an orochi expert, but he obviously suffers from this problem too. The following characters also suffer from this, because their unblockables are hilariously easy to dodge/parry for guaranteed damage: Lawbringer, Centurion (to a lesser extent), Valkyrie, Shugoki, Nobushi, Aramusha.

I don't think that everyone should have a shieldbash or core mechanic unblockables like the vanguards, but nobody should be safe just by standing in a place and blocking everything. You want to destroy the turtle meta, and you can only do it if you force everyone on their toes.

PS: If the shaman can have omnidirectional feintable jump attacks that can be comboed to other things, unblockable heavies with guardbreak softfeints, the better version of the pk dagger cancel, faster side dodge attacks, and the predator things, I don't understand why shouldn't the pk has an unblockable, she would be still the inferior version of the shaman.

[CaynAldan]

Been honest, i didn't hope for an UB in Orochi, but i hoped for some soft feints like Kensei one. And a proper reward for its defelcts, it's the most useless move of the game.

[Goat_of_Vermund]

I think they buffed it up to 35 damage, which would be nice if you wouldn't eat a berserker's bearmauler finisher in return.