Senior Member
Honestly I see that in a different way. You have to bear in mind that at this level players are very good defensively (can't remember how many but some of them were in the 1v1 tournament the previous season) and right at the start when two did go for an attack at the same time they were both parried and there is revenge. Guardbreaks weren't hitting, most heavies were being parried or dodged with sidewinder, most multi attacks were only feeding revenge. When Skorbrand went into revenge, Alernaken, who had been 1vx with his own nobushi, stood off while the lawbringer handled revenge as best he could as a parry would have gotten him knocked over (as it did with the raider who was killed off that), he then went in hot as soon as revenge finished which allowed the revive.Originally Posted by SpaceJim12 Go to original post
You also have to consider that Skorbrand was very spatially aware, near the end of that the raider went for the shoulder carry and was dodged, he was then dodged again and ate a heavy after the second attempt. While it might have been smarter to just cede the zone and go to the soldier lane while Skorbrand recovered or secure home zone which was flashing white, if they were getting involved in 3v1 the smart play was keeping up the waves of pressure with revives.
Junior Member
Senior Member
Well, I understand they all good in parry, but still none of the attackers attempt to attack together, as all gunkers do.Honestly I see that in a different way. You have to bear in mind that at this level players are very good defensively (can't remember how many but some of them were in the 1v1 tournament the previous season) and right at the start when two did go for an attack at the same time they were both parried and there is revenge. Guardbreaks weren't hitting, most heavies were being parried or dodged with sidewinder, most multi attacks were only feeding revenge. When Skorbrand went into revenge, Alernaken, who had been 1vx with his own nobushi, stood off while the lawbringer handled revenge as best he could as a parry would have gotten him knocked over (as it did with the raider who was killed off that), he then went in hot as soon as revenge finished which allowed the revive.
As example, Nobu and Raider could use heavy+unblockable zone which means lonely Nobu should react oh both attacks, try to parry or dodge, and in the same moment LB use shove and long arm, done. Nobu on the ground taking hits. And I'm not sure if it's competitive Dominion or not, but in most situation one of three gunkers already got revenge as well, due to gear stats. I mean, when raider eat three hits, I believe with gear he already should have revenge and use it.
And again, as I said, none of them attack at the same time. They always switched up, and make this 1v1, while someone revive next challanger. In gunks people start revive only to bite defender to attack, cause this mean to become open to a hit.
I still don't know what means "top tier" of play, but if I were a LB from this vid, and got skilled Nobu and Raider on my side, I can bet 5k steel this Nobu will be done in couple seconds. 10 sec. max.
I met people who gunk so perfectly and smarty, that makes them...god tier players?
Senior Member
Member
Easy fix:
Step 1: Delete the point system as it is
Step 2: Adjust maps, make travling between points actually take some time
Step 3: Holding the objective is the only source of points, no boost of points from capturing it only holding it generates a fixed amount of points/time
Step 4: Adjust needed amount of points for a match to last a reasonable amount of time
Step 5: Rework op feats so feeding a deathball isnt a thing in any regard anymore
Deathballing will lead to assassins easylie snack points behind the deathball, there is nothing to feed to the deathball.
Players actually need to communicate which point will be attacked and those points will be contested in actual group fights.
Maybe remove revenge after that.
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Senior Member
One thing I would point put is that Skorbrand was very proactive in rolling when he didn't like the situation he was in, that scenario works best when one of them are behind you, when the lawbringer did manage an impaling charge he wound up far away from the other two and as I said before he dodged two raider stampede charges, getting a kill with a heavy in the process. I suspect that part of it is revenge and respecting his defence as well as his own positioning and changing positioning. Could they have done better? Maybe, but I do think you undersell Skorbrand also. Also remember this was before the parry changes, any parry meant a heavy and most whiffs were dodge punished. This was a competitive 4v4 by the by, there had been a round robin before this and a prize on the line.Originally Posted by SpaceJim12 Go to original post
That's the thing though, it is dominion that needs to be fixed. Three or four should have an advantage against one person unless that person is very skilled, that is basic math and there is nothing wrong with that. What is wrong in this situation is that dominion is an objective based mode and there is no drawback to deathballing as there are in other games such as League of Legends which has bigger maps and places on those maps a player needs to be filling his role in. Managing a deathball and not losing out on the long term game takes a co-ordination and skill in LoL it does not in dominion and that is what needs to change.Originally Posted by Kelson27 Go to original post
Part of the solution might lie in finding a way to get skirmish more populated because that is where a rolling 4v4 belongs, but in terms of dominion the changes that need making are in making the objective more important.
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I disagree. You'll probably start winning games against gankers if dominion is more of an objective based mode, but you will not have addressed the actual problem directly - it will persist.
Griefers will continue to do things such as sit in a spawn and take you out 1 at a time, group up together and choose classes together such as a set of four cents/lawbringer/shugoki etc and only play to kill other players and spam their emotes for funsies.
I do not want to win games where I die over and over again because ganking is a problem, but we got the points. That is not fun. I absolutely agree being outnumbered should be a disadvantage, but it goes deeper than that. Disables, recovery, parrying, unblockables and revenge. There needs to be a way to address the problem, not the environment the problem exists in.
This is not the worst by a long shot, but to me this is ganking: http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/kd27/video/51360985
Sure, they should have run away/played differently etc. But that doesn't address the problem itself.
Senior Member
Competitive dominion explains a lot. Gear stats make it all different. Yesterday, for example, I met Centurion who have almost infinite revenge, so that was almost impossible to kill him. And double refind Raider, that could kill my Shinobi with one zone and one light. I would deffenetly play competitive dominion myself, but sometines it took 20+ mins to find a game on PC.One thing I would point put is that Skorbrand was very proactive in rolling when he didn't like the situation he was in, that scenario works best when one of them are behind you, when the lawbringer did manage an impaling charge he wound up far away from the other two and as I said before he dodged two raider stampede charges, getting a kill with a heavy in the process. I suspect that part of it is revenge and respecting his defence as well as his own positioning and changing positioning. Could they have done better? Maybe, but I do think you undersell Skorbrand also. Also remember this was before the parry changes, any parry meant a heavy and most whiffs were dodge punished. This was a competitive 4v4 by the by, there had been a round robin before this and a prize on the line.
Still, as Devils said, this a most friendly gunk. I still see no kick from enemy Nobu, no zone->softfeint->top light from Raider. In the end, he could spam it randomly every time, when Skorbrand focusing not on him. This will make indicator flashing and missed hits as well. And in the end, when Lawbringer did successfuly impale, all enemy Nobu should do is to hit her light chain, cause opponent were compleatly defencless. She stand right there, watching LB got away victim, and than she like "Oh, it's time to revive!". Without gear two lights with bleed from Nobu will be enough to end it.
Maybe I undersell someone in this action, but I was on lonely Nobu place so many times, that I just see a ton of mistakes and really soft moves from this "gunkers". Cause if I was in this situation nobody gives me a chance to do heavies and dodge heavies like lonely Nobu did. If I'm not playing with a noobs, of course. But if this a top tier play, there can't be noobs.
I should disagree with you. As I see in many multiplayer games, nobody want to loose games again and again. And if devs do something about dominion, gunkers start to loose over and over and they will be forced to choose another tactic to win. Now gunking is an easy way to win, and than humiliate loosing team. I see enough of this guys in a game. If you patience enough to answer and than win next match, this guys always leave after one loose.Griefers will continue to do things such as sit in a spawn and take you out 1 at a time, group up together and choose classes together such as a set of four cents/lawbringer/shugoki etc and only play to kill other players and spam their emotes for funsies.
I do not want to win games where I die over and over again because ganking is a problem, but we got the points. That is not fun. I absolutely agree being outnumbered should be a disadvantage, but it goes deeper than that. Disables, recovery, parrying, unblockables and revenge. There needs to be a way to address the problem, not the environment the problem exists in.
Again, in Heroes of the Storm if team of gunkers start to loose, they always split up, or trying to travel map together, but it's useless mostly.
If you cut of feats from gunkers as well (like not enough points from kills) and let team make points for feats together, like if someone kill minions in mid, exp for feat go to every member of team, so in one moment gunker who fight 4v2/3 will get catapults and all this.
