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[bannex19]

This is a legitimate question; what are the pros and cons of basing hero balance around the abilities of pro gamers?

On one hand I understand that at the pro level you're dealing with the very best at the game and if it's unbalanced at the pro level it won't be taken seriously.

On the other hand, characters like the shaman, shinobi and centurion who have an easily exploitable movement set against new players often result in a lot of rage quitting by the average gamer thus resulting in a purely hardcore player base and therefore making it difficult to recommend.

I'm not looking for the answer, or a fix. I just think it's an interesting discussion. Does a game that only caters to pros really have a future and how detrimental would some abject nerfs be to these l2p characters on the pro scene?

[EvoX.]

Stopped reading at Centurion.

[Kryltic]

Stopped reading at Centurion.

And that'll be why you missed his point.

Hes not saying they're good competitively. Hes saying they are noob stomping characters which can drive away newer players.

Now, back to the OP. The problem is all characters can noob bash in some way, what the game should do, before you play online for the first time, is play a warning message and suggest the trials and arena to learn about the different characters. Another idea could be something added to the practice mode about how to avoid/escape some common plays characters can make. A "how to" type video.

Other than that, its a case of self inflicted punishment if a new player jumps in blind and refuses to learn about countering characters they are struggling with.

[CandleInTheDark]

This is a legitimate question; what are the pros and cons of basing hero balance around the abilities of pro gamers?

On one hand I understand that at the pro level you're dealing with the very best at the game and if it's unbalanced at the pro level it won't be taken seriously.

On the other hand, characters like the shaman, shinobi and centurion who have an easily exploitable movement set against new players often result in a lot of rage quitting by the average gamer thus resulting in a purely hardcore player base and therefore making it difficult to recommend.

I'm not looking for the answer, or a fix. I just think it's an interesting discussion. Does a game that only caters to pros really have a future and how detrimental would some abject nerfs be to these l2p characters on the pro scene?

Speaking as someone who is not high tier and has never claimed to be, I do think the balancing needs to be around the pro gamer level. This is because of the devs' stated aim of going into the esport market (yes, yes they might be a way off but that gets no closer by staying still), if they nerf learn to play characters hard then they are not viable picks at that level.

Whenever a new character comes out I go into the arena (well, how to play as it was then), I spend time playing as that character and trying to learn as much of their moveset as I can, I then go against a level three bot which while it is not a player gives me an idea of what I am going to struggle with. With the new training mode I suspect anything I do struggle with I will be able to plug into a custom move set to fight against. This is a couple hours before I even touch PvP. Yes some characters are learn to play, but catering to that, especially with the improved tools we now have, is not healthy for the state of the game or the devs' intentions for it.

Now, back to the OP. The problem is all characters can noob bash in some way, what the game should do, before you play online for the first time, is play a warning message and suggest the trials and arena to learn about the different characters. Another idea could be something added to the practice mode about how to avoid/escape some common plays characters can make. A "how to" type video.

Other than that, its a case of self inflicted punishment if a new player jumps in blind and refuses to learn about countering characters they are struggling with.

Exactly this, I suspect I am seeing some of that starting out again on PC (which would feel horribly close to smurfing if I did not intend that to be my main platform for the game now, I am waiting for the game to find my level and prioritise that over rep). I play the Valkyrie and the amount of wow spam and general saltiness because of things that people more experienced in the game would deal with shows just how a nerf the noob stompers mentality will harm the game given Valkyrie is one of the weaker picks.

[bannex19]

To make this clear this isn't about who is good and bad at the game. I'm merely posting a discussion (because that's what forums are for) not asking for nerfs or buffs (which I am guilty of).

Furthermore, I'm not even looking for this to be solved for the most part. To reiterate and I think some replies have nailed it, which is better for the long term health of the game... balancing around pros or making it more accessible to casuals?

I think the cop out answer is of course both. If there was a way to slowly introduce pvp like a different rule set for unranked players. Maybe reduced stam drain, no feats and bigger reversal windows for guard break? In the end I'm not sure what it would accomplish but reduce the feeling of not having any control over your character after one mistake.

[bannex19]

@Evo Yeah I figured somebody would totally miss the point, grats on your Twitter based social skills!

[Alustar.exe]

To me it boils down to how complex and nuanced you want your game to be. If you want real depth and creativity within the games base mechanics, you have to balance at the highest tier of players, because that's the point, high skilled play.
For me the problem is always going to be causal players mis-assuming their place in the ranking. As handle has said, and I will second, a lot of us have no illusions about where we stand, however many players seem to think they are above the rules of practice and growth. To me, too many players assume they are hear the peak of skilled play, and thus if something counters them, it must be the game and not their own skill.
That and we are dealing with an instant gratification generation of gamers that wasn't contradictory material nerfed and/out right removed immediately out of a knee jerk response. That's unhealthy, and detrimental.

[EvoX.]

And that'll be why you missed his point.

Hes not saying they're good competitively. Hes saying they are noob stomping characters which can drive away newer players.

Yeah, and? I may not have been here since this game's launch, but I've watched plenty of gameplay and read discussions before I bought FH - at the beginning, everyone was crying about Warden's SB mixups and Orochi being an easy class with Top Lights and overpowered Zone to victory. Now where are they? They've either adjusted or left, but the game is far from dead, so even if the latter were true, the loss of those players isn't significant.

On the flip side, you have the players who actually bother to learn the opposing hero's moveset and counter them, as a result of which they improve massively, eventually achieve victory and be invigorated to continue playing more and more. Those are today's veterans, and those are the players that Ubisoft should listen to and base their changes around. They are:

A. Way more knowledgeable about the game
B. Able to make accurate and unbiased judgements about an aspect of the game
C. Way less likely to hop onto the ''next big thing'', unlike the new/casual players

If this game were balanced around what the new or even average player thought and wanted, it would be in a far, far worse state than it is now. As the person above me stated, instant gratification and knee jerk response changes are a very bad choice when trying to balance a PvP game.

Oh and listing those characters is also stupid. They're all 1 tier apart from eachother, Centurion being the lowest, and those same noobs that are getting crushed by him would get doubly crushed against PK, Conq and Zerker. They are literally not able to tell the difference between them since they have such a small understanding of the different heroes and their mechanics. So of course, when newbie #1 sees 3 Unblockable symbols (Centurion) instead of just 1 (Zerker), he'll think the former is way stronger and unfair. To us, however, that would be laughable.

Case and point: nearly every class could easily be labeled ''noob crusher''. We, as players, owe nothing more to them other than giving advice on how to counter heroes they're having trouble with and encouraging to bother learning instead of blindly complaining. Ubisoft, on the other hand, owe them absolutely nothing, and that's how it should stay.

[Arekonator]

To give as simple answer as possible: When you balance a character, you have to balance it around when the character is played at its full potential, because if you dont, you are potentialy neglecting balance problems that could be much, much worse.

[bannex19]

To give as simple answer as possible: When you balance a character, you have to balance it around when the character is played at its full potential, because if you dont, you are potentialy neglecting balance problems that could be much, much worse.

To play devil's advocate here, the full potential of a hero can be watered down (so to speak) in order to make the game more casual friendly.

Where do you draw the line at complexity?