Senior Member
kinda offtopic but:Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
platform is NOT irrelevant. even when using monitor and same controller the ps4 for example will still suffer from input lag. also 60 fps for pc is actually quite low. most will have at least 120+ fps when we talk about proper gaming pc (if its a big advantage to go from 60 to 120 fps is another thing though).
anyways playing on pc makes things waaaay more reactable than you give it credit for.
Senior Member
Maybe the ps4 is just worse with this game then. Because I didn't feel much of a difference when using a monitor and a wired connection with my xbox to playing on pc with 60 fps. I'd imagine if you had a proper setup where you were getting 120 frames or more it would be a big deal. but i'm talking about 60 fps exclusively because that's what most people compare consoles frame rate to.Originally Posted by SenBotsu893 Go to original post
Banned
Senior Member
Factually untrue, on xbox I have 15 reps between valk and warden, on PC valk has my first rep and after I have my 4v4 picks to rep 7 (or the rest of the heroes too, depends how I feel after the first five but know the enemy and all) I plan to get her to rep 50 on PC. Might take me a year or more if I rep everyone but stick around I'll post a screenshotOriginally Posted by Jarl.Felix Go to original postI don't main anyone because I fill gaps in 4v4 pug teams but she has always been among my favourites and I want rep 50 with one.
Speaking of Valk, while I am not saying she needs nothing doing to her (she does) it amuses me how quickly people say she or anyone is completley useless. The main complaint is that people always dodge the sweep after a shieldbash, well yeah if you are going to be predictable it will be predicted but if you know that people will predict the sweep why aren't you instead guardbreaking? Do that a couple times and people either get caught between dodge or cgb which enables a sweep to land or if they pick one and pick wrong they eat a heavy regardless, if they dodgeroll away they take a stamina hit after taking a stamina hit from the bash and unless you're low on stamina yourself you can pressure them with a dodge closer.
Junior Member
So, as I promised I'm back to this discussion after a Orochi rework release.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Fastness didn't work on PC, idk how it is on consoles, but on PCs everybody stops you on 2nd light with block or even parry. Mostly Orochi's mains will parry your lights because they get used to new Orochi as first. Pretty much the only ones which complain about this rework as being "broken, game is done, lol bye for honor" are these, which tries to play vs new orochi as they would be fighting old Orochi. All players which are careful and which decides to turtle will stop you as usual. LB still doing block, shove, attack, wait. Starring competition last too long? Ok, few heavy feints to bait Orochi into attack and here we go: block, shove, free light."OrOcHi DoEs NoT nEeD a KiCk, He Is A cOuNtEr-AtTaCkEr!!!!11!"
As you propably know already - that dash after chain finisher does not exist as you won't ever get to 3rd chain attack unless you are playing vs level 1 Warden. Not eveyn saying that dash is completely useless, because all attacks which Orochi can do after dash are highly dependent on enemy attack. If enemy won't do any attack after your 3rd chain attack - if you somehow will get to 3rd attack - that dash cancel is kinda useless. No, you can't do sh*t which they showed on Warrior's Den, none of them dash cancel rip tide will connect without enemy imput before that.
Rip Tide - feels super week, sometimes if you will do that really fast vs super slow heroes you will get hit first, like - highlander does top heavy, you clicked Rip Tide pretty fast, you goes forward with attack and his attack just got you before, nice counter. As I was saying before - why no leave both Rip Tides? Just rename new one and Orochi would have 3 counte attacks, just WHY NOT?\
Storm Rush - do not even try to do top one, 10/10 would be parried unless you are playing vs insta-dashing PK. Both new storm rushes, this off-hand and top one, are kinda wierd, because they are lunched when you are just in front of your enemy. You see, old Storm Rush was tricky if you wanted to try hit Orochi first during run. Not parry, not block, not dodge, just hit him few MS beofre his hit. Characters with long reach could do that eazier, but when you tried it with some normal range character then you was usually hitten first. Why? Because the "attack deploy window" was wide, which means that Orochi was starting to attack when he was a couple feets before you and SR was connecting just in time when he was in your attack range. Now these new ones starts the animation when Orochi is just in front of you. Like, he stops his run and he starts the animation. What does that mean? All you have to do is throw heavy attack and be ready to cancel in case of Orochi SR cancel. And this "SR heavy counter window" is wide as fu*k right now. Whenever you will see Orochi running toward you just throw top heavy and wait. If he will cancel - cancel as well. If he will do "standard SR" then you might be in trouble because of that what I described above. But whenever Orochi will try to let them new SR fly, just let your heavy fly. You will hit him first and you will stop his SR. Don't try to parry it, don't try to dodge, just do a heavy.
It's just a few days. In a week or two Orochi will be in same spot. Feints to zones, top lights, or parry turtling.
Ubi, you don't need to give him a kick which will do some borken sh*t as other kicks in game. You don't need to give him a kick with stuns, stamina drops, broken distance. Just give side heavy soft feint to gb, which will lunch shurt jump to ninja-styled knee to stomach/chest which will drop enemy off of stance and let Orochi do one guaranteed light. And ofcourse this kick could be dodged. We need a way to open turtles and deny players which are like "ok Orochi main rips me apart, but I dont need to attack, let him attack cos what else he can do, meh". With that kick in my move set I don't need to even use it, you know what I'm saying? Its mind game. Enemies will do their own inputs because they know that whenever they will be over-waiting for Orochi's input - they will get kicked and light attacked.
Because, if you will show your enemy that you are a good Orochi, and he is playing a character which is not even designed to be a turtle, parry waiter, he would start to turtle anyway. Why? BECAUSE HE KNOW THAT ALL YOU CAN DO AS OROCHI IS ATTACK.
Just give him simple, small, not overpowered kick to open players which likes to play starring competition.
Senior Member
People are able to block his comboed attacks easily because they're currently bugged and forced to be buffered after storm rush. meaning the attacks are 100ms slower than they should be after storm rush lands. As for his 400ms light after landing a neutral light if you or your opponents are consistently blocking/parrying it that's not an orochi issue that's just you guys being too good at the game. Plenty of competitive pros still don't block/parry 400ms attacks on reaction. I'm inclined to take their words over yours anyway.Originally Posted by Pirus_ Go to original post
Dash cancel is amazing in 4v4. Not everything done to a hero is meant to be useful in all scenarios.
The real question is why would you be doing a top attack on reaction to another top attack. Old riptide would have been hit there as well. New riptide is strong because it can punish lots of things on reaction the old one couldn't. Conq's forward bash vary timing and warlords zone come to mind.
Storm rush bugs withstanding is amazing now.
No kick because orochi is not meant to open heros. giving every hero a way to ignore defensive play invalidates one playstyle. and for honor needs a healthy balance of both defensive and offensive play. If this new rochi is a joke for you to deal with that's because you're amazing not because the rework failed. I'm not discussing this further.
Junior Member
I do not really know what competetive players you know that just can't handle 400ms lights if they are thrown just like that. Ofc, there is a problem with fast lights but ONLY if they are combo'd with mixups, like Aramrusha's lights. Do you want to tell me that comp. players are just rekt'd constantly by Aramushas cos he has fast attacks? No, cos he can mix up them into something totaly not obvious, and then this speed gives adventage, cos its really hard to keep up with it.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
Orochi is not a mix up hero, its a counter attacker, so his lights in chain will be blocked and parried.
There is no chance to counter an attack if there is no attack - that's the main reason why Orochi need some tool to force people to attack, not because I asuming that everyone needs it in game. PK was ok for a long time without an opener, but she had a broken zone and bleeding. One GB in duel was taking from 1/3 to 1/2 of your HP (like Shinobi low hp pool).
I'll come back here last time like in week or two. See you.
Junior Member
As I promised - I'm last time here after about two weeks from rework.
So, let's start it from the bottom to the head.
- Attack speed:
Till now everybody get used to them and you can't spam that on mid-elo. Here is it how it is: any 2nd light in chain gets mostly parried, almost eveytime blocked. Starting with side lights get's you parried. The only thing to do is trying to do top lights and then follow it up with heavy, feint it and then try something other. But it will work like two times per duel, then opponent gets use to that. So, basicaly you have to play OG Orochi style, which means you have to try to slide in top lights mixed with zones. Fastness do not work, as I said, as we have already fast champs in game and nobody kills anyobdy with spam, like... IDK why even Ubi thought that giving speed will work. Or Ubi just totally sh*t on PC players. Speed do not work on any elo above mid on PC, period.
Those lights are only fun vs pretty weak player with average parries. Then you might do some lights to heavies/heavy feint and you will spam him to death, then he will type on chat "orochi is broken" and he will go write it down on reddit.
Playing style didn't change at all on mid and higher elo.
- Rip Tide:
It's a back dash, end of the rant.
But for real, now you can get GB'd even more times than before, cos any GB during back dash will catch you. On old Rip Tide the opponent has a window to do GB. If he was late then he bounced off and you had free strike. Now they can GB you till whole dash time. Now RT is a light parry, so it gives your opponent a free heavy. IF you will manage to counter someone with RT then just do not follow it with any light in chain. It became so overused that it will get you parried. All you can do is stop and be happy that you did damage or follow it up with heavy feint and maybe you will figure out something from it.
- Storm Rush:
Eh, so... Now you have bigger window to cancel SR, it's pretty much during his whole run-time. Seems to be cool, but to achive that Ubi had to change the animations of SR. Now Orochi runs, when the time of cancelation passed, he stops, and then he start the animation of SR. Before SR cacnel window was smaller, so he was getting to attack animation much faster. What is the case? Before you had to block a SR, parry it or dodge. "Counter arracking" a SR was very risky. Now all you have to do is just throw 2nd attack (like, 1st was missed, Orochi found an oportunitty to counter with SR). All those anims are so slow that SR is just banned from being a counter attack. Belive, everybody knows that on any elo above average. They just follow up any missed attack with 2nd attack and Orochi runs into it. Actually you can "counter" someone with SR only in case when you just wanted to do something with SR and accidentaly opponent attacked in same time, so you let SR fly and you hitted him at the end on 1st attack animation. Whenever you will try to input SR a little after the start of enemy attack - he can stop you with 2nd attack follow up.
SR is good vs weak players and insta-dashing assasins. Ofc you might it it from time to time, cos maybe someone will not expect that you will let SR fly from nothing, but it was achiveable on old SR as well.
SR is not a counter attack anymore.
What is really good in SR and propably in whole rework is that SR cancel recovery time is pretty short which lets you do something other wiht it. What I like to do and it works even on higher elo is doing SR feint to fast heavy. It's messing with enemy parry timing really hard so it's a clean hit pretty often but mostly it's a block, but still. As well - do not follow it up with light even after clean hit - it will get you parried.
Typical match-up with 40 rep Warden:
He waits, he feint, he zones. If you will try to attack with light chains he will parry you. He tries to bait you for zephyr slash with heavy feints. If you will realize that you can't attack him like that and you will play passively then he will start to let you guessin what he gonna do from shoulder bash. What do you have to do? You have 3 options: 1. Turtle more and let him should bash you to death. 2. Try to attack and maybe you will manage to get some clean hits, but overall it will be a lose cos he will get paries. 3. Play OG Orochi with top lights, zones and defensive options. You will have 3 minute long rounds in duls, but you might win 3-2 or lose 2-3 which is not that bad.
To anyone who thought reading this *but you can counter his shoulder bash attempt with, idk, Rip Tide!". I remind you - I'm talking all the time about mid and above elo on PC. Even if he would fall one or two times for such a low elo counter then later he would do shoulder bash cancel and he would parry your RT, which would be a free heavy now.
So. You can't attack, you can't turtle up vs warden like this one. And it is a match up which I had today. I'm 35 rep player, 24 rep Orochi from Open betas. I played this game for Orochi, I bought it for Orochi, I watched multiple tutorials when I was starting with him and spent tens of hours on old and new training mode. I really know what to do. You just won't do any pressure having attacks only in your kit.
Warden like this one aboeve will be like: Orochi attacks? Ok, free parries. He don't? Shoulder bash guessing game. He play OG Orochi? Now we have to guess a little, sigh.
Can someone from UBI finally relate to this thread. I knew how it gonna be from the time when I saw this rework on live stream and it is how it is right now. I just started my YT channel but now I really starting to think about leaving For Honor as you won't touch Orochi anytime soon. If I will continue to play this then I would do a series named "orochi does not need an opener" which will sum this rework up in the most accurate way.
In the end I want to explain you something, cos I've got a feeling that you do not realy know this...
The meaning and usage of an opener!
Having opener in your kit does not mean that you will spam it all the time. It does not mean that you have guaranteed wins cos you will open people constantly. Having opener in your kit is a mind game, you know what I mean? Your opponent know that you have it and it's like 70% of openers job. Your enemy playsyle changes drastically as he know he can't stand and wait cos he might be opened, so he tries to attack in different ways and attacks from opponent is something which counter attacker mostly needs, right? So, Orochi with opener does not mean that he will be opening people up all the time, but it will give him more opportunities to counter and keep fight flow on by just having opener sitting calmly in his kit. The best example is Kensei and how fighting against him changed. You just can't turtle him anymore. And does he spams opener? Ofc he don't. But you know he can, right? He can open you if you will wait too long.
You see, Orochi needs the same type of opener. He does not need a opener like Warden's shoulder bash or Cent kick that would let him do combos and start damage chains. He needs an opener like Kensei, an opener which goes from something like side heavy soft feint to opener. Now, seeing Orochi doing side heavy you don't know. Be ready for parry? Dodge his opener? What if he will cacnel it to GB? Ok, I'ma wait to see what will happen - bang, opener connects, one free light. What would happen in next 10 seconds? Opponent would not be stanidng in place to avoid situations like this. After a week or two everybodu gets use to Orochi's opener and everybody - FINALLY - fights him, as they started to fight Kenseis.
At the end, few reminders:
- Ubi spammed UBs and openers all over the game so stop taking about "it's too much openers" when it came to Orochi. If it's too much then start to remove them.
- Orochi is not the only one counter attacker in game, Shinobi is one *cough* and he has a kick opener on which he plays around at regular basis *cough*, and LB is a counter-attacker *and he has UB shove, throw, UB in chain, etc *cough*. I'ma end this here, but there a more counter attackers in game which has all of this *cough* Aramusha's kick from blockade, hti from blockade and cancelable zone with UB to keep enemy guessing if he turtle up.. oh, and a hyper armor *cough*.
Just stop that and line Orochi up with the rest to fit current game play or start to take off that ub's, openers, ha's from others if it's too much *cough Orochi is an assasin as Shaman or Glady and I'm not even able to count how much UB's they have *cough*.
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