Orochi rework a.k.a. A "week rework". | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

Tired of re typing so i'll just copy paste my response from other rochi threads:

"Rochi has an unblockable deflect. He doesn't need anymore.

Storm rush can't be reacted to on back dodge because riptide strike covers it. It has variable timing and you won't be able to see what side it's coming from till after the attacks started. The top storm rush has undodgable property. Meaning in order to avoid you'll have to roll away if you don't feel like trying to block. The Storm rush hit counts as a heavy and the first hit in his chain. That means even if you block he can still follow up with a 400ms light. And that light can lead into a heavy finisher which he can back dodge out of into riptide or another storm rush or a dash attack. Or it can just be feinted to parry your parry attempt or feint into GB to GB your parry attempt. Storm rush will also be cancelable at any time before the attack like how it was in the beta.

Riptide itself seems to be 500-600ms now which means it can punish conq's shield bash vary timing on reaction. among some other potent mix ups. And nearly all of his attacks got faster by 100ms. Of course Orochi will still not have an option against someone who turtles up and only goes for free damage occasionally. That doesn't mean the rework is bad. That's not the current meta anyway. Safe aggression is. And seeing as how orochi is a counter attacker he should do fine in this meta."

On top of that. Soft feints, unblockables, and armor are not needed to make a kit functional/good. Orochi is a pure counter attacker. He could have been given any of those things and done better. But would have lost his identity. Giving everyone an "opener" just circumvents defensive play entirely. Which isn't a good idea. They never tried to have orochi open turtles. They always designed Orochi around punishing the person with counter attacks. If we still existed in a time where defensive play was super strong then yes he would need a different rework.

But It's no longer meta to turtle up. All of the S tier heros are S tier because they have access to some safe aggression. Not because they're great at turtling. Defensive play was only the best pre season 5 because of the redic rewards you got for it. That's no longer the case. Competitive/top tier players are already saying orochi is A tier. I'd rather believe their word over yours.

[Knight_Raime]

Kinda funny how this is what makes him S-tier, quite possibly the best Duel hero after PK gets nerfed, but Roachi will probably settle down in B-tier, isn't it?

B tier heros have poor match ups vs S tier heros and only one viable tool.
Season 6 rochi has hurricane blast mix up which is great against a HA spammy zerk and glad in general.
Rochi's riptide strike will be fast enough to punish conq's varied bash timings on reaction.

Everything about SR and how it behaves and being covered up by riptide pretty much seals glads fate. Full block baiting won't work against it because rochi can hard feint out of SR at any point before the attack starts like how he was able to in the beta. And since it's out of zerks range the zerk will have to properly guess instead of spamming through it.

Rochi easily replaces warlord in A tier. unsure if he's better than shaman. But not better than HL or Kensei purely because both have an answer to defensive play. Rochi doesn't. Not saying Rochi has favorable match ups vs conq or zerk. But the match ups are a lot closer now. The match up is absolutely in rochi's favor though vs gladiator.

[SuspectTexas630]

I so agree he has no options in terms of opening up people, I am a console player and have faced some very high tier players, this will not cut it with the Orochi, other than his new riptide and faster lights he is gonna have the very same struggle. Everyone saw how fast riptide is now, and it gonna make it worse because turtles are gonna turtle up even more as they are expected this move to be over used immediately after the release of season 6. Orochi Rework SUCKED. period. nothing more to say except season 6 reworks are a waste of time and effort.

[PDXGorechild]

Kinda funny how this is what makes him S-tier, quite possibly the best Duel hero after PK gets nerfed, but Roachi will probably settle down in B-tier, isn't it?

My point is we don't know yet. Mentioning Zerk was just to highlight the fact that I was underwhelmed when I heard about his changes, but they turned out to be really good. Orochi is not Zerk. They are almost polar opposites so comparing them is pointless.

yes , u r talking about zerk, zerk was 10 time better than orochi and got rework to 2 unblockables and uninterruptible and a ****ing fast attack as feint, but after 2 weaks ,everyone could block these feint fast lights, so he just had the chance to work with unblockables and try his uninterruptible to trade. But orochi has non of them. And me as pc play with rep 108 and orochi rep 18 know that these attacks of rochi will get at least blocked easily after 1 or 2 weeks. Always the same, if u bring out a "REWORK" u have to think about all players , new ones , but old ones aswell . Not just add new cool moves and everybody is happy ! orochi was weak and sadly willnt be top tier with these changes . 4v4 maybe will do better becaus of being fast but 1v1 still lowtier.

Wouldn't say he's 10 times better than Orochi even now. Orochi does not need Unblockables, because these new changes will give him so many more options. I'll direct you to read Raimes pretty comprehensive post above.

[Knight_Raime]

I so agree he has no options in terms of opening up people, I am a console player and have faced some very high tier players, this will not cut it with the Orochi, other than his new riptide and faster lights he is gonna have the very same struggle. Everyone saw how fast riptide is now, and it gonna make it worse because turtles are gonna turtle up even more as they are expected this move to be over used immediately after the release of season 6. Orochi Rework SUCKED. period. nothing more to say except season 6 reworks are a waste of time and effort.

K so one turtles are not effective anymore. But i'll humor you. A turtle is someone who rarely parries/goes for safe options/tries to punish predictable play. Lets look how that's not possible with new orochi.

Lets say the turtle wants to try and punish SR/riptide because a dash before an attack is generally pretty reactable. Turtle tries to GB. GB bounces off because riptides speed punishes it. Turtle tries to attack. Riptide punishes it because distance and speed. Turtle attempts to feint bait for a parry. SR direction is hidden and varies in speed. Turtle decides to just block and punish after. SR is a heavy. so combo continues. Into a 400ms light that can come from any side. Even GOOD player struggle to react to 400ms attacks. So blocking gives orochi free damage of his light we will say 80% of the time. Finally turtle decides he doesn't want to mess with this and tries to dodge. Top SR is undodgable regardless of where you dash. You'd have to roll.

So. What have we established? You can't react to orochi on back dash alone. And because Orochi is all about that back dash now people are forced to deal with what happens after Rochi decides to commit to something. This doesn't touch on the fact that Orochi can at any time dash out of a heavy finisher to punish his opponents reaction with various tools such as his undodgable dash attacks, more storm rush/riptide, or deflecting into a potential other mix up.

In order to beat this new Orochi you'll have to be the aggressor and not allow orochi to do anything. OR you're going to have to get good at punishing whatever orochi chooses to do against you. Which will likely not be predictable/reactable and have to be done on a read.

Also i'm pretty sure blocking orochi's riptide still lets a combo happen. they talked about it having an interrupt animation on block. Or something similar. if that's true then he gets into the same situation of being able to do a heavy finisher and dodge out into various options.

[ArchDukeInstinct]

A lot of people thought the Beserker rework was going to to accomplish nothing at all and Berserker would still be a C tier character but now he's at the top.
There's a lot of variables, you should wait until the rework is actually released and people have had time to play with it.

[Tyrjo]

Orochi is going to be a beast after the changes. Stop asking for unblockables like it's the holy savior of a hero's kit.

[PirusYT]

To preform an unblockable deflect you still require enemy which will attack you, however this unblockable ain't doing the unblockable job, because in higher elo unblockables are not used to hit enemies trought block but to let them guess if they have to parry or not. Especially while enemy is OOS. Champions with unblockable from "nothing" (means champs which can just stand and deliver UB) has a huge adventage while you are OOS, Orochi has nothing, GBs and attacks = zero pressure on OOS enemies.

Now, what you described in quote is practically the same thing that Ubi shown on Warrior's Den stream which I seen live. It's still dosen't make things straight. See - you won't be able to do all this combos on any elo above medium. You won't put three lights in any of the enemies on PCs.
Let's look on combo which you described, this stormrush to light to heavy and soft feint dash. First off, I don't know if you did a mistake or if I do not understand something, but you need to let that 3rd heavy fly to perform dash soft feints, mens it needs to hit an enemy or hit his block (idk if it will work with missed heavy, similar to Nobushi kick which she can perform even if she misses the attack). What does that means? You wil preform a Storm Rush, enemy will magicaly won't be able to even block this, then you will drop light which has proly the biggest chance to actually hit the body and they you want to finish it with heavy?
You are console player, right?
Let me tell you. Even if SR will hit the body or block, then light will hit the body there is still no way that 3rd heavy will hit, and most likely on PC mid tier and above it will get parried. That's the problem of that. You will be able to finish chain rarely, so all of this soft feint dashes will be useless. And even if you will be able to spam **** around to get that dashes then what can you do from that? Zephyr Slash, Strom Rush and Rip Tide. Ofc you can do some wierd **** like dash feint heavy gb or just dash to gb, whatever. But sticking to his super new super fast combos, you can do ZS, SR and RT. None of these will hit if you will just perform that after chain. Doing all of these 3 dash attacks without enemy missed input - you will get parried. The only good thing is that any midly good Orochi won't ever miss a SR, cos if he will dash back after enemy attack, let the SR fly and he will see that enemy just recovered he will be able to cacnel SR anytime, so SR is now more safe, that's why I told in first place that this is the only REALLY good thing in this rework.

Defensive meta ain't gone and it will never be, it's only feel like it is because they actually added and reworked champs to have openers and unblockables, so you ain't able to turtle. While you are playing Orochi tne situation is different, you know what I mean? That's why orochi need one of these two things, opener or unblockable, because playing duels as Orochi is way trought the hell. Even if in the first round enemy tries to fight you back and you will rip him apart, then in next two rounds he is turtling hard, and you can do **** bout that. So turtle meta still exist vs Orochi and he needs some fix to end that. Why? Because you can't be a counter-attacker while there is no attacks. Turtle meta for Orochi begone in start of Season 2, where everyone aleady realised how parry is easy to perform and how much it gives.

And I don't know what competetive players you know, I'm 19 rep Orochi and most of the Orochi's I meet on PCs - Orochis, which consider themselves as good ones are just turtling with top lights, zone and feints to try to parry you, extermely boring to fight, where you have choice to just try **** and end it fast with lose or to play every round for at least 4 minutes trying to open him up. The best of those are these which have total rep 45, Orochi rep 8, their main is some Warden rep 30, they'll beat you up with parries and zones and they are like "how are you rep 19 Orochi".
To make it clear - no, parrying ain't part of Orochi playstyle, parrying is just core mechanic of the game, everyone can be counter-attacker by using parries, so parries are not a counter-attacks, its just a defensive option.
If he has to be a counter-attacker then he needs more combos and moves, now he has two moves, RT and SR. Give him like 4 more moves which he can combo'd it into something. Like I said in first post, why do they replaced Rip Tide? Why no leave both and these new could be called, idk, Tiger Leap (it looks like tiger leap imo).

I won't answer any more now, I can return to discussion with you just after Orochi rework and around weak after.



You all which says that Berserker rework was looking wack but then when you tried it in game it became super good. I mean - how could you see HA every 2nd attack and two extra UB and thought that won't be a good rework? Just how?

[PDXGorechild]

You all which says that Berserker rework was looking wack but then when you tried it in game it became super good. I mean - how could you see HA every 2nd attack and two extra UB and thought that won't be a good rework? Just how?

Because one UB was at the end of a slow 3 hit heavy chain that nobody ever uses, and the other is a super slow top heavy and probably one of the most telegraphed moves in the game. Pretty good for forcing a reaction as it can be pulled out pretty quick with a light > heavy, sure, but I never used to let it land it unless it was safe anyway. All I really got was half the damage off my favourite move with the damage nerf.

As far as Hyperarmour is concerned, he had lots of it anyway. The opening hit to get dance of the paired blades was the challenge, once he was in full flow it was all hyper-armoured anyway. His lights being sped up was the only thing that excited me.

[Knight_Raime]

To preform an unblockable deflect you still require enemy which will attack you, however this unblockable ain't doing the unblockable job, because in higher elo unblockables are not used to hit enemies trought block but to let them guess if they have to parry or not. Especially while enemy is OOS. Champions with unblockable from "nothing" (means champs which can just stand and deliver UB) has a huge adventage while you are OOS, Orochi has nothing, GBs and attacks = zero pressure on OOS enemies.

Now, what you described in quote is practically the same thing that Ubi shown on Warrior's Den stream which I seen live. It's still dosen't make things straight. See - you won't be able to do all this combos on any elo above medium. You won't put three lights in any of the enemies on PCs.
Let's look on combo which you described, this stormrush to light to heavy and soft feint dash. First off, I don't know if you did a mistake or if I do not understand something, but you need to let that 3rd heavy fly to perform dash soft feints, mens it needs to hit an enemy or hit his block (idk if it will work with missed heavy, similar to Nobushi kick which she can perform even if she misses the attack). What does that means? You wil preform a Storm Rush, enemy will magicaly won't be able to even block this, then you will drop light which has proly the biggest chance to actually hit the body and they you want to finish it with heavy?
You are console player, right?
Let me tell you. Even if SR will hit the body or block, then light will hit the body there is still no way that 3rd heavy will hit, and most likely on PC mid tier and above it will get parried. That's the problem of that. You will be able to finish chain rarely, so all of this soft feint dashes will be useless. And even if you will be able to spam **** around to get that dashes then what can you do from that? Zephyr Slash, Strom Rush and Rip Tide. Ofc you can do some wierd **** like dash feint heavy gb or just dash to gb, whatever. But sticking to his super new super fast combos, you can do ZS, SR and RT. None of these will hit if you will just perform that after chain. Doing all of these 3 dash attacks without enemy missed input - you will get parried. The only good thing is that any midly good Orochi won't ever miss a SR, cos if he will dash back after enemy attack, let the SR fly and he will see that enemy just recovered he will be able to cacnel SR anytime, so SR is now more safe, that's why I told in first place that this is the only REALLY good thing in this rework.

Defensive meta ain't gone and it will never be, it's only feel like it is because they actually added and reworked champs to have openers and unblockables, so you ain't able to turtle. While you are playing Orochi tne situation is different, you know what I mean? That's why orochi need one of these two things, opener or unblockable, because playing duels as Orochi is way trought the hell. Even if in the first round enemy tries to fight you back and you will rip him apart, then in next two rounds he is turtling hard, and you can do **** bout that. So turtle meta still exist vs Orochi and he needs some fix to end that. Why? Because you can't be a counter-attacker while there is no attacks. Turtle meta for Orochi begone in start of Season 2, where everyone aleady realised how parry is easy to perform and how much it gives.

And I don't know what competetive players you know, I'm 19 rep Orochi and most of the Orochi's I meet on PCs - Orochis, which consider themselves as good ones are just turtling with top lights, zone and feints to try to parry you, extermely boring to fight, where you have choice to just try **** and end it fast with lose or to play every round for at least 4 minutes trying to open him up. The best of those are these which have total rep 45, Orochi rep 8, their main is some Warden rep 30, they'll beat you up with parries and zones and they are like "how are you rep 19 Orochi".
To make it clear - no, parrying ain't part of Orochi playstyle, parrying is just core mechanic of the game, everyone can be counter-attacker by using parries, so parries are not a counter-attacks, its just a defensive option.
If he has to be a counter-attacker then he needs more combos and moves, now he has two moves, RT and SR. Give him like 4 more moves which he can combo'd it into something. Like I said in first post, why do they replaced Rip Tide? Why no leave both and these new could be called, idk, Tiger Leap (it looks like tiger leap imo).

I won't answer any more now, I can return to discussion with you just after Orochi rework and around weak after.



You all which says that Berserker rework was looking wack but then when you tried it in game it became super good. I mean - how could you see HA every 2nd attack and two extra UB and thought that won't be a good rework? Just how?

Player rep means nothing. I'm only an overall rep of 21 and I reg fight people who are much higher overall rep wise and win pretty often. Platform is also irrelevant. PC people have an "easier" time reacting because of monitor refresh rate over a standard tv. Which means they see more accurate information more often as it's happening. Not that they get extra time to react. 60 fps doesn't do that. You just see a better animation. Console players can be basically on par with pc one's by using a monitor and having a wired connection.

Giving everyone an opener circumvents defensive play which is not good. The game needs a balance of both. If every hero can just ignore someone blocking them with an unblockable mix up that just imbalances gameplay. You can't and should not try to fix player behavior with balance passes. A hero being able to block everything as a general concept is not bad. The main issue was always the rewards from playing that way. which they've fixed. Rochi is in a far better spot now than he was. And I didn't deny that he will struggle vs a turtle. What i'm saying is that's not a problem.