"Deathball"/Ganking Meta Feedback | Forums

[Camemberto]

Not sure if this would fix the problem in dominion and a lot of people might not like my change, but what if you changed the game into more of a king of the hill where while you're in the zone and it's unoccupied by the enemy team you gain points, but you have to stay in the zone to accumulate points. You're no longer allowed to leave it otherwise it goes back to neutral.

This would however only work if there was anything to do, while "defending" the zone. Simply standing around is hardy riveting gameplay...
If you had to fend of waves of minions or captains, in order to keep it, then yes.

[PDXGorechild]

Not sure if this would fix the problem in dominion and a lot of people might not like my change, but what if you changed the game into more of a king of the hill where while you're in the zone and it's unoccupied by the enemy team you gain points, but you have to stay in the zone to accumulate points. You're no longer allowed to leave it otherwise it goes back to neutral.

All up for a king of the hill mode, but not if it means trading dominion. Dominion should be outmanoeuvring your opponents and using effective timing to seize opportunities. King of the hill is essentially a skirmish drawing everyone into one point.

I feel the same way! Additionally there should be some extra stamina damage... This way you don't just keep hammering until you eventually do hit someone, because you will be out of stamina really quickly.

Also a good idea. Attacks against allies rebound, stagger and cost double the stamina of whatever the normal swing would be.

[Camemberto]

Also a good idea. Attacks against allies rebound, stagger and cost double the stamina of whatever the normal swing would be.

I do think that while actually doing damage to allies could be abused for griefing, I do think that the ally, being hit should play the same getting-hit-animation as normal, only without the damage.
This way, not only are you staggered, rebound and out of stamina, BUT you are also to blame for interrupting your ally's attack and potentially having them killed by the enemy.

Sure this would be annoying as hell for the ally, but that's the way it is right now anyway, so there shouldn't really be an outcry over that...

That way, not only is the ganksquad punished for being careless, but the player being ganked also benefits from it... that should change the tides tremendously.

EDIT: maybe even do stamina damage to the ally, but I'm not sure about that ^^

[Animaeus]

Revenge should be completely disabled, deactivated and entirely unusable in ANY 1v1 situation even if one player just finished a fight and has only a sliver of health left. As long as they have a few seconds of reprieve to get their bearings before being stabbed in the back, they don't need a ridiculous uninterruptible advantage to win a consecutive 1v1 no matter how large the health defacit may be. Those mechanics should be reserved exclusively for when you're being attacked by more than player simultaneously.

And in ANY 1vX situation, revenge should be SIGNIFICANTLY stronger to the extent that people feel like they're putting themselves at a big disadvantage by ganking.

The simplest example would be: Any time someone interferes with a 1v1 revenge automically activates (no meter to build) and the auto-parry damages them for half of their max health and puts them OOS. All of this happens without requiring any input or acknowledgement from the would-be victim, and they can continue their 1v1 without any regard for external attackers.

The game is called For Honor.
Make it honorable.

[Knight_Raime]

My feedback will probably be useless because I don't particularly play 4v4 often but i'll post anyway.

~AOE feats need to go (aside from maybe smoke bombs.)
They are too strong as is. I'd be fine with them being map pick ups. Friendly fire should be added to them if they stay in any capacity.

~Feats need to be unlocked from the get go.
When a team has an early lead this lets them snowball the enemy team. I know feat unlocking is an attempt to force players to visit zones but that should be done differently.

~Introduce deminishing returns on attacks.
Since the roster is too small to simply out right not allow hero stacking this would be the next step. This means attacks will do less damage if spammed by multiple sources. Bashes will drain less stamina. etc.

~Dominion scoring has to change.
Death balling/ganking has no discouraging mechanics. Even if you manage to lose a point or 2 when death balling you can easily recap it and be basically back where you were. The idea that the match can swing either way pretty much the entire time is fun. But it doesn't work out on paper. I don't remember all of my suggested scoring changes for dominion. But I believe I made kills basically worth practically nothing unless they were on points. and you got more points for defending a point. and a point needed to be held by someone in order to get points from it.

~Friendly fire damage should be adjusted.
It needs to be higher on some heros and less on others. This should discourage people from spamming attacks with an ally near.

~Stats need an overhaul.
Currently it seems like the only build worth having is a short duration high damage revenge build to deal with the constant influx of ganks/death balls.
While this is fine for the time being I feel like it would ruin the better dominion. If possible I'd like stats to be nice side grades to things. Not just number bonuses to make you stronger or weaker. I don't have any examples to give. But I can say 100% that if stats were less...important when it came to fighting i'd be more willing to actually play 4v4.

I think that's it for now. will edit if I think of more.

[SilentMayan]

What I believe will positively affect the game mode would be full blown friendly fire. Ex. Your team's Shugoki hit's you in the back with a fully charged heavy attack attempting to hit your lone opponent? You should take the full 60 damage, or however much you would take if he were your enemy.
I believe that this would negate the inherent advantage of Ganking by preventing it from becoming a chaotic mess where everyone spams heavys and unblockable, without worrying about any consequences. This'll, hopefully, slow down the kill times for Deathballs by forcing them to consider the the positioning of nearby allies and forcing them to try and coordinate to avoid too much friendly damage.
Another possible change could be increasing the revenge gain for parrying multiple attacks simultaneously. Again I believe this'll prevent Deathballs from becoming a huge chaotic mess like it currently is. Forcing people to try and find an opening to hit the target rather than spamming attacks trying to coincidentally find damage lest they give their opponent any unnecessary revenge charge. That said I hope the aforementioned mentioned change would be enough to solve the inherent problem with Deathballs without making revenge a bigger mess than it currently is.

[Tirik22x]

I want to see 100% friendly fire.

I know, you’re afraid of team-killing, from trolls. I get it. But, that can be negated with team-killing penalties. Negative scoring being the first thing to come to mind. Negative kill stats, second. And a respawn penalty for the team-killer, thirdly. 5 seconds for 1st offense, 10 for 2nd, 20 for 3rd, booted from the match for 4th.

[Waxfacts]

In every "Dominion" kind of games, usually Deathball-ing is a troll way to play that leads to defeat. Why ?? Because the way to victory is usually to strategically spread your forces and have a small "assist" team run to whatever is being challenged. In For Honor, Deathball-ing actually works because of the following reasons :

Problem #1 : Most maps are too small

The time it takes to move from one zone to another is about 10 second on most maps. On the other hand, reviving takes a base of 15 seconds and getting back to a zone takes at least 10 seconds. You can see how the "Deathball" team can thus create a winning momentum by cycling through players that will start reviving at different intervals and will rush in solo. They will undoubtly realize they are against a Deathball and thus, will avoid it and ninja cap something. But this will only ensure the Deathball will almost always rush (in 10 seconds) against a solo player and keep the momentum going.

Solutions :

a. Revives happen in waves of 30 seconds of server time. Having the game check every seconds if a player should revive always lead to players reviving at different time, not to mention characters have different running speed ... Few players will wait for someone else to revive and that means, they'll rush in solo ... every single time ... and die to the Deathball. If revives happen every fixed 30 seconds of server time, then you and your allies can revive all together and form a better fighting chance. Sometime the game has to help players with teamwork with such game mechanics.

b. Encourage boosting. Make captains spawn after X seconds of boosting. Have archers minions shoot a volley at zone "B" after Y seconds of boosting (and screw those OP Fiat Lux character cheesing renown). Start earning double / triple renown after X and Y seconds of boosting. Give your team a buff after X seconds of boosting. Give the defending player(s) a "Shield" if they were boosting when the zone they were in gets contested. This might leave to more teams leaving 1 player at every zone while keeping 1 roamer. It will also slow down the Deathball if all they do is move from one zone to another to contest if they then have to kill captains and shielded players defending.


Problem #2 : Some maps are very linear

Maps like Forge can be very hard to the losing team to come back from because there are only 2 paths to take to get to zones instead of 3. Some other maps might have 3 paths like Sanctuary Bridge, but the paths are so close to one another that it's very easy for the winning team to block all paths to their starting zone. This means if ninja capping ever become a better solution, in reality, on those maps, ninja capping is almost impossible.

Solutions :

a. Dynamic respawn time : Like in tribute, the more zone you possess, the longer it takes you to revive if you get killed. It's a simple fact in video game : if you want to make it fun and entertaining, you NEED to give the losing team an advantage that will allow them to make a come back.

b. Redesign the maps. That might cost a lot in term of "level artist" and "level designer" salaries. But lets be frank : some maps are just dreadful and should go back to the design board. Here is a suggestion : On the next maps you release, how about you put the spawn points in the middle of the maps and the zones at the edges ?? That way, the losing team reviving is always closer to a zone then the deathball moving from one zone to another.


Problem #3 : The winning Deathball team's feat unlocks faster

Boosting hardly gives any renown compared to getting kills within a Deathball. As a result, the winning Deathball team can steamroll even harder by unlocking their high tier feats first, especially with grenades and such other strong AoE feats instantly winning teamfights. (Nerf pugno mortis, catapult and spear storm already !!).

Solutions :

a. Give massive renown to any heroes who successfully defend a contested zone or get kills on a contested zone they are defending.

b. Upgrade the amount of renown you get for boosting a zone.


Problem #4 : Revenge is poorly designed against Deathballs

Revenge needs to change, PERIOD.

First of all, revenge builds up way too fast, especially with revenge gear. Moves like Centurion Kick or Valkyrie Heavy cancel into shield bash feeds SO MUCH REVENGE they are a bad idea ... those moves designed to open up turtle actually helps them turtle even more. Not to mention I've seen some players activate revenge up to twice in a 1v1 fight. That should not happen, period. Revenge needs to be a tool whose sole purpose is to give a small boost to a player getting outnumbered. When in even number, revenge should not happen at all.

Second of all, the game client has trouble identifying scenarios where a player is being outnumbered because all players needs to interact with his character for the game to realize HEY, he's being outnumbered !! This is unfair to "dodgy" players, their revenge just doesn't go up at all. This is also unfair since if the extra player choose to act at the last 20% ish hp of his target, revenge might never happen despite the outnumber situation.

Third of all, I'm beyond sick and tired to revenge not only doing a knockdown, but for some characters like Orochi and Berserker to get 2 heavies garanteed before their target stands up. With the revenge attack bonus (wtf game design?), it leads to an almost 100% - 0% in that single knockdown moment. Game mechanics like this for the player on the receiving end leads to him thinking the game is litteraly cheating him. Skill doesn't matter anymore if a single mistake, sometime in a 1v1, will take aways 100% of your health. I have no idea who's genious idea it was to give revenge a knockdown and an attack boost.

Solutions : All following solutions work together

a. First step : Revenge doesn't build up anymore on attacks, block, counter guardbreak, blocking external attacks, etc. Basically, remove everything that currently raises the revenge bar.

b. Second step : Within the game client, write a code that will count the amount of players from each teams that are within zone A, B and C.

c. Third step : When a team is being outnumbered in one of the 3 strategic points, their players start building revenge. The speed at which they build revenge depends on gear stats and on how badly they are being outnumbered.

d. Forth step : Revenge no longer knockdown and no longer gives an attack boost. Instead, it gives you permanent hyper armor, gives you a shield equal to 100% of your maximum hp and lasts longer. Revenge is NOT MEANT to be an offensive move. Stop defending the lol one shotting you on the ground ******edness that happens even in 1v1 sometimes.

e. Yes, that means you wont ever build revenge when you're fighting between the strategic zones. Again ... sometime game mechanics need to push players toward teamwork and playing you know ... Dominion and not "whos the best Deathball".


Problem #5 : Very small friendly fire

No stop. This is not a problem actually, but I still want to share my though since probably players will suggest we upgrade friendly fire. This is a bad idea for not only obvious griefing reasons, but also because some characters like Highlanders, Berserkers and Shamans do an absurb amount of friendly fire without even trying.

The goal of this discussion is to change player's behavior so Deathballing stops. Upgrading friendly fire wont stop a player from Deathballing if it's his TEAMATES who are getting the punishment for it. If you want to change a player's behavior, you need changes that will directly impact the player's character.

I agree with most, if not all of your ideas. Especially the ones about boosting. Integrating more minion play like captains seems really cool to me.

[ChampionRuby50g]

It's great to see a thread like this made by a mod available for everyone to see and comment on, especially after the developer response to the issue several Dens ago. This shows to me that the team may have actually woken up a little bit to the communities concerns, but, this thread should have been made long ago.

I agree with a lot of the comments already made on this thread in relation to the ganking issue, and hopefully one of these solution's can be implemented without much more delay and help further balance the game.

[Vakris_One]

Lots of good suggestions here. I especially like the idea of having to stand on capture points in order to generate renown rather than have it be automatic. The Halloween Dominion mode worked similiarly to this principle so it shouldn't be too hard to implement.

I'm just going to quote myself from a thread that was present on the first page long before the devs remembered that they actually had an Official forum and Reddit wasn't 100% of their community:

What the Devs can do:
- Make it so that being hit with a shove/grapple/bite in an outnumbered situation fills up your revenge meter by a factor of 50-60% per unblockable melee hit. That way you get your revenge much quicker if being stun locked and pushed around by unblockable melee attacks.

- While in revenge mode you cannot be unbalanced or stun locked by unblockable melee attacks (kicks and shoves have no affect on you but Raider's Toss, Caber Toss, Demons Embrace and Shaman bite still do).

- Revenge activation should be instant the moment you press the button and should stop stuff like Raider's shoulder carry, Shaman's bite and Highlander's Caber Toss if timed right at the moment they grab you - i.e. just like how you can repel someone's weapon strike if you pop revenge. Shugo's Demons Embrace should also bounce off you if you popped revenge just as he is about to grab you but Shugo should not lose health or hyper armour in that situation, he should only be unbalanced.