"Deathball"/Ganking Meta Feedback | Forums

[We.the.North]

In League of Legends, ganking has been a part of the game for years and if a team can pull off successful ganks this is considered as good skillful gameplay. It is not seen as a problem simply because, whoever leaves their designated part of the map to attempt a gank gives a push opportunity to their opponent. They might get a free tower or an inhibitor, if it is the jungler he may fall behind in farm if he wasted time with too many unsuccessful ganks.

In For Honor problem with ganks rises from the lack of cost opportunity.

This perfectly sums up the Deathball problem.

[RoosterIlluzion]

The simplest, and best solution to this is having teammates that hit another teammate take damage. Whomever is hitting a teammate takes the damage, not the one getting hit.
This would at least deter more than 2 attackers from ganking, especially those with really wide weapon arcs... that's double or triple damage to themselves (damage of that specific attack for each teammate hit).

Or, have revenge ramp up for each player hitting you. If it's one enemy, your revenge builds and the defense/attack stat you have is normal. If there is a second player attacking you at the sane time, your revenge stats would increase a certain percentage (20%?). If three people are attacking simultaneously, your stats would increase maybe 30%.
So basically revenge damage/defense increase would be relative to the number of attackers.

I personally don't use any revenge stat bonuses because revenge right now is totally useless except for the throw knockdown mechanic.

[RoosterIlluzion]

Make Objective Zones generate points ONLY when they are manned. The moment you leave your occupied zone it either stop generating any points (while still staying your team's colour) or goes back to neutral white like B. This would mean any team running a gank is doing it at the cost of not generating points for the duration. Gank still will be a VERY valid option, but one that comes at a cost.

Above change is very easy to implement and it will improve Dominion vastly. Please do not take another 3 months to change things, just do it quickly.

One other mechanical change towards 1 vs X situations would be to make any external attack (attacks coming form other enemies than the one you are locked onto) to be blockable, even if attack has unblockable property.

This doesn't really fix the problem. Here's the scenario: Blue team captures all the zones, one person on B, one on C (this will be our minion zone), and maybe 2 on zone A. The orange team regroup, and proceed to move to zone B and gank the single player. Zone B neutralized, three orange teammates move to zone A, gank him and capture. So, since only A & B give double points while they're held, there's no point in moving to C.
If those last two blue players move off C to reclaim A or B, those points cease to accumulate.
This would only cause a tug-of-war situation for the whole match. Gank after gank after gank.

[Devils-_-legacy]

In my experience it stems from groups being paired against randoms or poor map design like forge and I think it's a problem as it's hard to effectively counter unless you have a group with mics

[ArmoredChocobo]

As for deathballs, modes that have objectives should prioritize doing said objectives.

Killing an enemy unit, especially with many teammates on one guy, should not weigh as much as holding the objectives. Full Stop.

Speaking of which, there has to be a deterrent for one player being attacked by multiple opponents. Revenge is not a proper deterrent, especially not in it’s current state.

Even knowing how to block multiple opponents isn’t too effective because they will stagger their attacks or one of them can guard break/unblockable you while the others wail on you while stunned.

I don’t know how, but something has to be done and it has to be a true punish, not an ineffective slap on their wrists.


Update: one idea, make Revenge exhaust anyone thrown back. At worst, the defending player can make a run for it. At best, the player can make a comeback and kill one or more of his attackers if they’re too greedy to back off.

[SphericalChip53]

Too reiterate some others' points and present my own,

In For Honor problem with ganks rises from the lack of cost opportunity. If a team captures A or C and then leaves it be, it is still theirs generating points, while they can freely hunt down enemy team as a group in a very small map with nothing to worry about leaving those zones alone, since they can just recapture anytime. Running as a death squad is by far the most strategically beneficial way of playing Dominion.

This is really important and the dead counterargument to anyone trying to say that gank squads are giving up objectives. My suggestion is completely removing the point gain of killing enemy heroes, as it that itself reverses the supposed opportunity cost and encourages teams to gank to get the kill advantage. Furthermore, boosting an objective should give 3 points and greater amount of renown over time to encourage people to sit at an objective instead of running in a gank for kills in order to get feats a lot quick and snowball the match.

Problem #3 : The winning Deathball team's feat unlocks faster

Boosting hardly gives any renown compared to getting kills within a Deathball. As a result, the winning Deathball team can steamroll even harder by unlocking their high tier feats first, especially with grenades and such other strong AoE feats instantly winning teamfights. (Nerf pugno mortis, catapult and spear storm already !!).

Solutions :

a. Give massive renown to any heroes who successfully defend a contested zone or get kills on a contested zone they are defending.

b. Upgrade the amount of renown you get for boosting a zone.

Another solution is to actively award renown based on damage done to an enemy hero during a fight, instead of only getting killing credit for winning fights, while all the effort the losing hero put in to defend a zone is wasted. Credit based on damage done and not killing was one of my favorite parts of BF1.

In every "Dominion" kind of games, usually Deathball-ing is a troll way to play that leads to defeat. Why ?? Because the way to victory is usually to strategically spread your forces and have a small "assist" team run to whatever is being challenged. In For Honor, Deathball-ing actually works because of the following reasons :

Problem #1 : Most maps are too small

The time it takes to move from one zone to another is about 10 second on most maps. On the other hand, reviving takes a base of 15 seconds and getting back to a zone takes at least 10 seconds. You can see how the "Deathball" team can thus create a winning momentum by cycling through players that will start reviving at different intervals and will rush in solo. They will undoubtly realize they are against a Deathball and thus, will avoid it and ninja cap something. But this will only ensure the Deathball will almost always rush (in 10 seconds) against a solo player and keep the momentum going.

Solutions :

a. Revives happen in waves of 30 seconds of server time. Having the game check every seconds if a player should revive always lead to players reviving at different time, not to mention characters have different running speed ... Few players will wait for someone else to revive and that means, they'll rush in solo ... every single time ... and die to the Deathball. If revives happen every fixed 30 seconds of server time, then you and your allies can revive all together and form a better fighting chance. Sometime the game has to help players with teamwork with such game mechanics.

b. Encourage boosting. Make captains spawn after X seconds of boosting. Have archers minions shoot a volley at zone "B" after Y seconds of boosting (and screw those OP Fiat Lux character cheesing renown). Start earning double / triple renown after X and Y seconds of boosting. Give your team a buff after X seconds of boosting. Give the defending player(s) a "Shield" if they were boosting when the zone they were in gets contested. This might leave to more teams leaving 1 player at every zone while keeping 1 roamer. It will also slow down the Deathball if all they do is move from one zone to another to contest if they then have to kill captains and shielded players defending.


Problem #2 : Some maps are very linear

Maps like Forge can be very hard to the losing team to come back from because there are only 2 paths to take to get to zones instead of 3. Some other maps might have 3 paths like Sanctuary Bridge, but the paths are so close to one another that it's very easy for the winning team to block all paths to their starting zone. This means if ninja capping ever become a better solution, in reality, on those maps, ninja capping is almost impossible.

Solutions :

a. Dynamic respawn time : Like in tribute, the more zone you possess, the longer it takes you to revive if you get killed. It's a simple fact in video game : if you want to make it fun and entertaining, you NEED to give the losing team an advantage that will allow them to make a come back.

b. Redesign the maps. That might cost a lot in term of "level artist" and "level designer" salaries. But lets be frank : some maps are just dreadful and should go back to the design board. Here is a suggestion : On the next maps you release, how about you put the spawn points in the middle of the maps and the zones at the edges ?? That way, the losing team reviving is always closer to a zone then the deathball moving from one zone to another.

This is another big issue/design flaw. Maps like Sanctuary Bridge, River Fort, Shard, and Forge have very bad deathballing problems because of how small and/or linear the maps are. This is especially exemplified in AI matches on these maps that end very quickly because the player team can easily cap all of the objectives and then just sit at the AI's spawn for the rest of the match.
However, in maps such as Overwatch, Sentinel, Temple Garden, and Gauntlet, deathballing isn't a problem because the sheer distance between objectives and/or the non-linear nature of the map forces ganks to split up. Overwatch is one of my favorite non-deathballing maps due to how both spawns flow to C, preventing ganks by forcing a team fight on C itself or the platforms, while individual players must peel off ganks if they want to capture A or B. More maps should be designed in this vein instead of the bland tunnel that is Forge.

Also, I do not agree with readjusting respawn or revive times to account for map size, as this is simply treating a symptom instead of the source problem of bad map design that facilitates deathballing.

There needs to be "side quests/missions" players can do to turn the tide of matches. One of the reason 4v4 Dominion has evolved into this is because there is nothing else to do in Dominion, it's either you cap points or kill people. If there are side objectives to do on the map, players will have more of a reason to branch off. With these huge maps, there are a lot of pockets of emptiness on the map were nothing happens.

There needs to be a way to fortify your areas that you capture if your maps are going to be so small, the fact that all it takes is for someone to take one foot in and capture it, making capturing points as a whole a chore and not the main objective.

This is another idea I agree with very much, and just a simple suggestion of mine would be a side-objective of squads of 2 or 3 captains spawning at various places around the map. For instance, 2 minutes into the match, Blue team has a squad of 2 captains spawn somewhere on their side of the map, and over the next minute, Orange team will get 30 points for each captain they kill, and a brief buff if both are killed, while Blue team will be awarded 30 points for each captain that survives the minute, and a brief buff if both captains survive. Then after another two minutes, Orange team will have their squad of captains spawn, and so on. Side-objectives such as this will help redirect fighting and provide other opportunities to gain points if your team is struggling to hold a majority of the main objectives.

[KitingFatKidsEZ]

Ive played too many video games competetively and the main problem with people grouping up and stomping others is like in every other game: premades (because its easy for them to coordinate) and the players on the stomped team not understanding when to take a fight , and when to group up. This leads to people continuously streaming into ganks 1 by 1 rather than waiting for respawn.

Now one of the main problems of this game is THERE ARE A TON OF BOT GAMES! AND BOTS DONT GROUP UP! BOTS DONT FOLLOW BASIC STRATEGY. BY THE TIME YOU GET A FULL TEAM YOU CAN BE BEHIND 500 points. And once youve lost all map objectives it still takes a while to take them back. Ive seen bots run into 1v4s constantly in skirmish where literally the only amount of strategy you need is grouping up!

That said the entire map layout and zones favor group fighting.
Pretty much all maps in for honor are linear. Sometimes somewhat diagonal , sometimes straight (Point C to Point A). So rather than defending home and mid point it is obviously MUCH more efficient to CONTROL THE SPACE around the area that is closest to your opponent. Simply because of how the maps are laid out, you can always see people running past you if you camp their homepoint and react accordingly (i.e. pick them up or just defend their home point)

MID POINT IS USELESS. You CANT BOOST mid points by being there for some reason. AND you can control mid by controling the space near the enemies home and killing minions walking past. Even if you dont do that, there is no reason to show up near B more often than once in a minute to clear out minions (which on some maps can be done by just throwing aoe from an elevated position, completely removing the need to ever physically be there). Since the point gain from the point itself is negligible and being there gains nothing. The minions coming to B are worth more than trying to hold the point itself.

Ganking is much easier now with all the unblockables. (Not sure if dodging these even gets you revenge, if it doesnt, it should)

HOW TO FIX IT: Fix bot games! You have to punish leavers hard and all the time. Make sure the report function actually does something for afkers so people who just walk in a circle to avoid the autokick can be punished as well. Make it so games dont start with bots. Increase matchmaking time to around 3 minutes. Better matchmaking based on skill, item level and party size will help. Time being the main issue (your match queues are INSANELY short compared to every other online multiplayer game) Also players should be pooled back into matchmaking after a game is over rather than staying together in the same match.
If you want less grouping up you need bigger maps where capture points are laid out in a horizontal manner. More FRIENDLY FIRE is not a good idea because it is going to be abused for GRIEFING!

[Mia.Nora]

More FRIENDLY FIRE is not a good idea because it is going to be abused for GRIEFING!

Just a small correction; only friendly fire suggestion in the thread suggests that the OFFENDER hitting his allies gets the damage, not the ally getting hit. Alternatively it can just be a score point and renown penalty for hitting allies.

That would be quite a good deterrent against spam swings and promote more accurate calculated battles, as well as not giving any room for griefing.

[KitingFatKidsEZ]

Just a small correction; only friendly fire suggestion in the thread suggests that the OFFENDER hitting his allies gets the damage, not the ally getting hit.
That would be quite a good deterrent against spam swings and promote more accurate calculated battles, as well as not giving any room for griefing.

^this would probably work quite well

Mea culpa, i just heard the idea thrown around on stream.

*edit: actually im not sure, thinking about it a bit more i can totally see people griefing others by walking in front of them all the time trying to get them killed when they attack.I still kinda like the idea tho because it would also reduce the efficiency of wombo combos like shaman pounce into someone else dropping a huge heavy on top.

[RoosterIlluzion]

In every "Dominion" kind of games, usually Deathball-ing is a troll way to play that leads to defeat. Why ?? Because the way to victory is usually to strategically spread your forces and have a small "assist" team run to whatever is being challenged. In For Honor, Deathball-ing actually works because of the following reasons :

Problem #1 : Most maps are too small

The time it takes to move from one zone to another is about 10 second on most maps. On the other hand, reviving takes a base of 15 seconds and getting back to a zone takes at least 10 seconds. You can see how the "Deathball" team can thus create a winning momentum by cycling through players that will start reviving at different intervals and will rush in solo. They will undoubtly realize they are against a Deathball and thus, will avoid it and ninja cap something. But this will only ensure the Deathball will almost always rush (in 10 seconds) against a solo player and keep the momentum going.

Solutions :

a. Revives happen in waves of 30 seconds of server time. Having the game check every seconds if a player should revive always lead to players reviving at different time, not to mention characters have different running speed ... Few players will wait for someone else to revive and that means, they'll rush in solo ... every single time ... and die to the Deathball. If revives happen every fixed 30 seconds of server time, then you and your allies can revive all together and form a better fighting chance. Sometime the game has to help players with teamwork with such game mechanics.

b. Encourage boosting. Make captains spawn after X seconds of boosting. Have archers minions shoot a volley at zone "B" after Y seconds of boosting (and screw those OP Fiat Lux character cheesing renown). Start earning double / triple renown after X and Y seconds of boosting. Give your team a buff after X seconds of boosting. Give the defending player(s) a "Shield" if they were boosting when the zone they were in gets contested. This might leave to more teams leaving 1 player at every zone while keeping 1 roamer. It will also slow down the Deathball if all they do is move from one zone to another to contest if they then have to kill captains and shielded players defending.


Problem #2 : Some maps are very linear

Maps like Forge can be very hard to the losing team to come back from because there are only 2 paths to take to get to zones instead of 3. Some other maps might have 3 paths like Sanctuary Bridge, but the paths are so close to one another that it's very easy for the winning team to block all paths to their starting zone. This means if ninja capping ever become a better solution, in reality, on those maps, ninja capping is almost impossible.

Solutions :

a. Dynamic respawn time : Like in tribute, the more zone you possess, the longer it takes you to revive if you get killed. It's a simple fact in video game : if you want to make it fun and entertaining, you NEED to give the losing team an advantage that will allow them to make a come back.

b. Redesign the maps. That might cost a lot in term of "level artist" and "level designer" salaries. But lets be frank : some maps are just dreadful and should go back to the design board. Here is a suggestion : On the next maps you release, how about you put the spawn points in the middle of the maps and the zones at the edges ?? That way, the losing team reviving is always closer to a zone then the deathball moving from one zone to another.


Problem #3 : The winning Deathball team's feat unlocks faster

Boosting hardly gives any renown compared to getting kills within a Deathball. As a result, the winning Deathball team can steamroll even harder by unlocking their high tier feats first, especially with grenades and such other strong AoE feats instantly winning teamfights. (Nerf pugno mortis, catapult and spear storm already !!).

Solutions :

a. Give massive renown to any heroes who successfully defend a contested zone or get kills on a contested zone they are defending.

b. Upgrade the amount of renown you get for boosting a zone.


Problem #4 : Revenge is poorly designed against Deathballs

Revenge needs to change, PERIOD.

First of all, revenge builds up way too fast, especially with revenge gear. Moves like Centurion Kick or Valkyrie Heavy cancel into shield bash feeds SO MUCH REVENGE they are a bad idea ... those moves designed to open up turtle actually helps them turtle even more. Not to mention I've seen some players activate revenge up to twice in a 1v1 fight. That should not happen, period. Revenge needs to be a tool whose sole purpose is to give a small boost to a player getting outnumbered. When in even number, revenge should not happen at all.

Second of all, the game client has trouble identifying scenarios where a player is being outnumbered because all players needs to interact with his character for the game to realize HEY, he's being outnumbered !! This is unfair to "dodgy" players, their revenge just doesn't go up at all. This is also unfair since if the extra player choose to act at the last 20% ish hp of his target, revenge might never happen despite the outnumber situation.

Third of all, I'm beyond sick and tired to revenge not only doing a knockdown, but for some characters like Orochi and Berserker to get 2 heavies garanteed before their target stands up. With the revenge attack bonus (wtf game design?), it leads to an almost 100% - 0% in that single knockdown moment. Game mechanics like this for the player on the receiving end leads to him thinking the game is litteraly cheating him. Skill doesn't matter anymore if a single mistake, sometime in a 1v1, will take aways 100% of your health. I have no idea who's genious idea it was to give revenge a knockdown and an attack boost.

Solutions : All following solutions work together

a. First step : Revenge doesn't build up anymore on attacks, block, counter guardbreak, blocking external attacks, etc. Basically, remove everything that currently raises the revenge bar.

b. Second step : Within the game client, write a code that will count the amount of players from each teams that are within zone A, B and C.

c. Third step : When a team is being outnumbered in one of the 3 strategic points, their players start building revenge. The speed at which they build revenge depends on gear stats and on how badly they are being outnumbered.

d. Forth step : Revenge no longer knockdown and no longer gives an attack boost. Instead, it gives you permanent hyper armor, gives you a shield equal to 100% of your maximum hp and lasts longer. Revenge is NOT MEANT to be an offensive move. Stop defending the lol one shotting you on the ground ******edness that happens even in 1v1 sometimes.

e. Yes, that means you wont ever build revenge when you're fighting between the strategic zones. Again ... sometime game mechanics need to push players toward teamwork and playing you know ... Dominion and not "whos the best Deathball".


Problem #5 : Very small friendly fire

No stop. This is not a problem actually, but I still want to share my though since probably players will suggest we upgrade friendly fire. This is a bad idea for not only obvious griefing reasons, but also because some characters like Highlanders, Berserkers and Shamans do an absurb amount of friendly fire without even trying.

The goal of this discussion is to change player's behavior so Deathballing stops. Upgrading friendly fire wont stop a player from Deathballing if it's his TEAMATES who are getting the punishment for it. If you want to change a player's behavior, you need changes that will directly impact the player's character.

I dig the idea about having minions more involved, such as having them volley arrows at a lead teams zone.

My suggestion couldn't have been lost so easily amongst the other comments. Every time a teammate hits one of their own, that person swinging his weapon takes the damage. That's the best deterrent.