Member
Hilighted/Bold areas are the short version.
I bought this game when it first came out. My friends and I were excited about it, and we played together for about a week. They weren't really into it, and after several discussions with them about the game, I have determined that they never really knew why they didn't like the game. They kept saying it was repetitive. I however, thought it was a decent game, but I couldn't shake the notion that there was just something about it that seemed... off. I stopped playing, because the game was somewhat repetitive. At least, I decided on it that it was repetitive. I was never happy with this, however, because I don't think a game can be "not fun" because it is repetitive. Every game is repetitive.
I've come back recently, and I decided to give the game another go. I wanted to try and figure out what it was that bugged me about the game. I wanted to make a note of it with specificity in hopes that the devs could perhaps correct the issue or at the very least, improve for the next title.
So, I think the closest anyone has come to specifying what is wrong with the game, is they jump onto this notion about how the AI is broken. While I would not disagree with this entirely, I think this expression is vague and lacks exactitude. Here is what I can see is the problem with Ghost Recon Wildlands:
This whole thing became incredibly apparent to me during the Sam Fisher mission which has been recently released. Had I not played that mission, I doubt I would ever have understood what it was about this game that irks me.
There is no clear understanding of how the AI operates and what the game expects me to do. There just isn't. I've put many hours into this game, and I still cannot understand the rules of the game. And what rules I do understand, seem to be far and away incredibly shallow for what is actually required for such a game. And I think this in a nutshell is the entire problem.
Usually, when you play a game, you learn pretty quickly what the rules are. Every game has a hook, and for you to enjoy the game, the player needs to understand that hook. I'll give you an example:
In Splinter Cell, Sam Fisher has a wide range of moves and tools. But the objective, really, is to control the battlefield by engaging one challenge/enemy at a time on your own terms. You do this by maintaining stealth at all costs. The rules are simple. Stay in the shadows. The game gives you a Light/Shadow feedback meter so you can understand exactly how exposed you are. The more you are in shadow, the less you will be seen. It's possible to be completely stealthed, even when the guy is standing right in front of you. Also, there is a sound meter. And you control the amount of sound Sam makes by regulating his movement speed. On the PC, you did this by scrolling the mousewheel up and down. Point is, all of this made perfect, clear sense. If you followed the rules, you could effectively play the game. Since the rules were easy to understand, and you knew how to play within those rules, it was easy to have a lot of fun and to fall in love with the franchise.
Metal Gear Solid was a similar kind of game in a sense. You approached the whole stealth mechanic by providing a top-down map of where enemies were looking. Stay out of their line of sight and don't make any huge movements to make noise, and you can effectively play the game. It's the same kind of deal. You can understand the rules clearly, and you can have fun. Because the player understands the rules of the game, they can determine what they do wrong and how to correct their performance to overcome any challenge in the game.
Ghost Recon Wildlands simply does not do this at all.
As best I can tell, GRW is a stealth game that doesn't provide the player with the necessary information on how to play the stealth game, and it does not make it clear that it's even a stealth game in the first place. It's implied in the name, and it's reinforced in the actual gameplay--especially early on, breaking stealth is a guaranteed death sentence, especially on harder difficulties. Nothing you do in the game seems to follow any of the rules we've been trained to expect from any kind of stealth game. We're spotted out of left field all the time. Our camouflage doesn't seem to make any difference. The Enemy is able to track you without you providing any information for them to do so--or at least, without information you can understand you are providing. Sound discipline is all over the place. How all of that works in connection to your Squad AI is not clear...
There just aren't any rules that can be pinpointed. So what you end up doing in the game, feels like you're just doing a bunch of stuff with no clear direction or understanding of how things work, because every time you think you have a handle on how it works, the game throws you a curve ball out of nowhere which breaks everything you thought you knew. And so you just do the safest thing possible. Drone, spot enemies, snipe everyone in town, move in once it's clear and press E. You do this every mission, and it's just... repetitive. You don't ever do anything else, because everything else you do is punished in way which you never understand.
"Don't do that, you'll be spotted."
"How?"
"Doesn't matter. Just don't do that."
"Fine I'll do this."
"Nope. You'll be spotted."
"I don't understand..."
Because we don't understand the rules of "stealth" the stealth gameplay feels like an exercise in luck or... The best way I can describe it is I don't feel like a cool Spec-Ops operator who made conscious decisions on how to deal with a situation. I can't formulate a plan. I can't route my entrance and exit. I can't depend on any kind of AI/patrol loop. I can't do anything. I can't understand what the game wants me to do. As a result, my imagination is not invested into the game. And if my imagination is not invested, I'm not emotionally invested. And if I'm not emotionally invested, what I feel like is the game is just "... Meh" which perfectly sums up how everyone I've ever spoken with feels about the game.
The Squad AI is all over the place. I've seen the Squad AI stand right in front of enemies and they do nothing. They don't shoot. They aren't spotted. Nothing. Other times, I've told my squad to move into cover, and they're immediately spotted. This in turn somehow allowed the enemy AI to know exactly where I was, even though I was on the other side of the map from the squad who was spotted. There's no sense to be made of this. None. I can't plan a course of action and execute the action if there are no clear rules by which my planning should be bound.
This is a game. You have to give me rules. I'm sure there's someone out there who would try and argue that "It's realistic" and all this stuff, but none of that matters. It's a game. Even real life has rules by which everything abides. The sky is up, the ground is down. Gravity exists. When you do something in real life, you normally have some kind of expectation of what is going to happen. It's how we understand consequences. This game does not abide by any kind of consistent rules that can be identified, and I think this is what bothers me about the game.
I can't effectively stealth, because it doesn't make any sense.
I can't effectively use my Squad AI because it doesn't make any sense.
I actually have an easier time "going loud" because at least the rules are clear: Kill every thing at all costs.
I really think this is the big problem with the game. I really do. I think if something can be done about this, then everything else needs to be pushed behind making this aspect of the game better.
I would like to reiterate that all of this became incredibly apparent during the Sam Fisher mission which was recently published. In that mission, you were required to sneak into a base without being spotted and without killing anyone. This one mission alone pinpointed with such clarity exactly what was wrong with Ghost Recon Wildlands.
The mission FORCED you to play the game like you would Splinter Cell, except none of what made Splinter Cell work as a game is in Ghost Recon. And that right there is what is the problem with GRW in a nutshell:
The player expects to be playing a Stealth game on the level of GRFS or Splinter Cell, and nothing in the game permits them to do so.
Senior Member
I think alot of people expect this to be a stealth game when it just isn't.
every ghost recon game has had stealth elements and GRW is no exception but the game is primarily a tactical shooter.
going 100% stealth is possible but things can go from quit to loud very quickly.
reconnaissance is this games primary focus getting intel and acting on it is the core of ghost recon wildlands
Intel can be anything from enemy positions to mission locations to weapon parts.
the games very first mission teaches you that staying undetected while spotting as many of the enemy's as you can gives you a foundation on what your next move should be.
sometimes stealth is the worst possible option you can choose and you'd be better off going loud and killing as many enemy's as you can as quickly as possilble
stealth is just one of the many options in GRW and limiting yourself purely to one playstyle will leave you at a disadvantage
Member
But it is a Stealth game, until it isn't a Stealth game. It's an open world game which says to tackle each mission the way you want to tackle it. It's up to the player to decide what they want to do. If they want to go in guns blazing--fine. If they want to play it Stealth. That's fine too.Originally Posted by ManticButton Go to original post
I've played lots of Co-Op. I've played lots of Solo. And one thing that is consistent every single time I play the game, is that the first option for any substantial undertaking is Stealth. It is the most apparent option at all times since every single enemy in the game defaults to Unaware--which is Stealth mode. To say it isn't a Stealth game is... well... it's not really consistent with the actual game.
People who expect the game to be a Stealth Game are within reason to expect that. Unfortunately, because the game does not provide clear rules concerning how Stealth works, this leads to people becoming disappointed with the game exactly as I've laid it out.
I'm not suggesting the focus on the game should be Stealth. For that to be an actuality, the game would have to punish you in-mission if Stealth is broken--as in the Sam Fisher mission. I'm simply suggesting that since Stealth is an option, the behavior of enemies, what they do and do not respond to, the actual rules of Stealth, need to be clearly explained. Players need to fully understand how the AI works within the rules. And the game simply doesn't explain it, and it isn't readily available to simply ascertain by playing.
Line of sight doesn't seem to be consistent.
The way the AI reacts to your Squad AI isn't consistent.
The camouflage does nothing to reduce the enemy's ability to see you.
Day/Night Shadow/Light does nothing.
These are all pretty normal things that... I mean they just should matter. I think the largest oversight is the lack of Camouflage. The second largest is that the enemy doesn't seem to respond to darkness. I think these two things alone would provide the player with a greater degree of understanding to the actual systems of the game. At least there, they have something tangible to keep track of.
To put this another way, Stealth is either broken on purpose or it is broken on accident.
If you break Stealth on purpose--that's your call. Everything happens pretty much as you would expect.
The problem is: Too often, Stealth is broken on accident, and hardly anyone understands why. <-- This is a problem. In fact, I would say it is THE BIGGEST problem in the game. It is exactly why people have a hum-dum mediocre attitude toward the game, and why people consider it mediocre. Better understanding of the Stealth rules will relieve this issue. But, as much as I've read on this issue, no one really understands what is going on. They simply chalk it up to "Bad AI."
Member
This game is effectively a 3rd person far cry game, not a ghost recon game. It's the same thing that every open world ubisoft game has been for a long time. It was never meant to be a hardcore stealth shooter mil-sim because that's a niche market (that this series has thrived in since the last game or so) but they are chasing money. This game was released far to early, with full price and a season pass and still had items pay-walled with actual cash on day one because they know people care how the characters look. That's why after years and years of games i finally caved and bought a season pass for this game, because in every other ubi game i was pissed that i missed out on cosmetics only available with pre-order. Then i saw that store and got very angry, nearly got a refund right there (so wish i did when i had the chance). I still played the game and even gifted it to someone, eventually i caved with the predator pack again (moment of impulse i immediately regretted). Then they decided to add loot boxes to the game, despite the recent ******** with star wars battlefront 2 in the news. This game is still a buggy mess, still has terrible controls despite the fixes, but there's always more stuff in the store to buy.
What did the gold edition give me
-3 patches (i think i used the wolf one)
-3 skins (not a single one i used)
-4 weapons that are not able to be customized
-3 camouflage patterns
-2 vehicles (which took at least 3 months before we could summon)
-800 ubi credits just enough to get people buying more
- some xp boosters and a permanent 5%xp boost (why these are needed in any game is an easily solved mystery.... money)
-Narco Road which I've said before I feel like you ow us for playing it, that is how bad this was. I truly believe anyone who thought up or approved this expansion needs to be fired
-Fallen Ghosts which was ok but still heavily overpriced for maybe an afternoon or two of gameplay
-oh yeah, the ghost war pvp promised shortly after launch that took 7 ****ing months to arrive.
Now they are asking 40$ more for a second season, **** that. Ubi has taken to much of my money and time already, I'm not saying I'll never play this game again but I really don't like the direction it took, the direction it's taking (again those god damned loot boxes, if I had known they would have been in this game I would not have bought it in the first place) and I'm far less inclined to even think about buying any product Ubisoft makes again. Any game of theirs I play is just a time or money sink (fork over more money or grind it out forever, pick one, PLAYER CHOICE!) after a full priced purchase. This is not OK, at all, no exceptions, any full priced game with micro-transactions is effectively spitting in our faces after we bought the game and supported Ubi.
btw, please don't comment on how these boxes aren't as bad because no duplicates or whatever, **** that, it's still a **** thing to put in a game that's again full priced. Also the pvp is going nowhere, it's a 4v4 player death-match in slightly different flavors that all end up playing the same way. The matchmaking, in game chat are both crap and it's full of cheaters ( can't name names, I've reported these players multiple times and so has everyone else, nothing has been done about it and nothing will be done).
Senior Member
I think the problem plaguing you OP is a lack of consistent and clear feedback on your actions.
Splinter Cell - as stated in your OP - works because the feedback is super clear - monitor the light and sound meter...clear visual representation of enemy states (it helps you're dealing with 1-2 guys at a time). Wildlands sometimes fails to make certain elements clear....and you learn by trial and error. That is truly where the game fails.
However, I actually find the lack of hand-holding refreshing. Sure there are certain mechanics like faction-specific vehicles reducing the time and distance at which you're spotted and what actions are 'Suspicious' as opposed to what actions can make you 'Hunted'....but it largely relies on an organic logic and in that it's quiet robust.
To say that you don't understand the rules is to say that you can't grasp real world concepts and apply them in-game. If it doesn't make sense IRL, it might not work in GRW. I play without the HUD - No enemy markers, minimap or even detection markers - and I don't have any issues sneaking around.
The stealth in Wildlands is surprisingly fleshed out and competes with dedicated stealth games. The enemy AI is wonky in some places, but behaves believably enough in most situations. You can distract and lure, take hostages, infiltrate via vehicles, sneak in during the dark etc.
There are also factually incorrect statements in your posts
Light and Shadow plays a huge role - AI visibility in the dark is severely reduced
AI reactions are clearly marked via animation and audio - There is a clear change in state from when an enemy goes 'Suspicious' from unaware
Patrol routes are also consistent and fixed. You may find units altering patrol routes IF you take a few guys out...this is perhaps done to up the challenge and a little dynamism.
That said, you do make MANY valid points
Ghost Recon Wildlands does indeed need to do a better job of relating the depth of it's stealth gameplay better to players when they first come onboard. Furthermore, the Squad AI is indeed inconsistent as to when and how they get detected. This is a major issue with the game indeed. It doesn't tell you when and if your Squad will be detected on being given a certain command.
The Sam Fisher mission was a goat**** not because Wildland's stealth gameplay was lacking, but primarily because it imposed Splinter Cell rules in a Ghost Recon game. Wildland's take on stealth is of the aggressive, silent killing wolfpack variety...and Splinter Cell's gameplay is centered around quietly slinking around, inches from the enemy.
The mission design didn't help either, they upped the density of the guards but also took away your ability to thin them out....which is why it just didn't work.
Member
I think this is a good way of explaining it, but I wouldn't call that hand-holding, really. I mean, it's one thing to give me an onscreen display of everything that's happening at all times. I don't think the game really needs that. I appreciate games that find more creative ways to deal with that rather than another HUD element. But...Originally Posted by shobhit7777777 Go to original post
You mentioned that the game simulates real life stealth situations pretty well, and if I can't do it IRL, then I probably can't do it in GRW. And, I mean I'm just kind of all over the place with that, because it's like the developers picked willy-nilly what parts of the game they wanted to be hyper-realistic and super over the top. Bullet drop isn't realistic. The fact that in Stealth, all our shots are one shot one kill no matter where the enemy is tagged, but the moment we're spotted, they're suddenly bullet sponges--that isn't realistic. The physics are... inconsistent. Shooting down helicopters without the proper tools to do so (at least an RPG even) isn't realistic. But now, suddenly, the stealth is hyper realistic. I mean, I guess there's something to be said that the Stealth gameplay is so on point, I never gave it enough credit because I actually expected it to be more simple and gamey--because everything else in the game is. But when you do that, and it is so different from what I experience with everything else... I mean there are some seriously damaged mixed signals going on here, ya know?
I can understand the AI reactions easily enough. I understand their behaviors pretty well given their different stages of Alarm. What I was driving at was, so often, I just don't understand why the AI reacted the way it reacted. Too often, I just did not understand the trigger mechanisms. "How did that guy even see me? What did he see?" Usually this has something to do with me being spotted or my Squad AI being spotted for some reason which just completely eluded me. And this gets to the core of what I was saying that the rules just... I don't "get" them. Maybe it's just like you said--I need some better feedback or something.
The camouflage thing really irks me, frankly. It's something my friends and I commented on Day One. It's like, "It's already there. Why wouldn't that be in the game?"
Maybe you're right about the Light/Darkness thing, but it's been my experience that it just doesn't matter. I would be willing to admit I'm wrong on that if it can be shown that it does matter, but so many times it seemed the game punished me for doing things I felt very confident I ought to have been able to do successfully regarding Day/Night Light/Shadow. Even in the Sam Fisher mission, I noticed this. It's in the middle of the night. I'm standing a good bit away from the nearest "cloud." I'm in full-on, black out, spec-ops gear no less (not that it matters) and suddenly my "You're about to be spotted" alarm starts ticking. I hit the dirt quick fast and I turn to see. And I'm sitting there scratching my head, literally, thinking, "How in the world is that guy going to see me from way over there in the middle of the night?" Again, maybe it's just that mission, but it's just something that's recently occurred. I've experienced that sort of thing LOTS in the game.
The patrols, I think... I mean I know they're in there. I can clearly see the guys moving around. At night they go to a barracks and sleep. I know there's stuff going on under the hood. I don't recall saying anything about the Patrols.
I mean, I think back to the first Far Cry, right? I remember having a tough time in that game with Stealth as well. Even Far Cry 2 had some weird stuff going on. But the game explained it: With armor, you can hide in the bush. Without armor, you can be seen easily. There was no clear feedback on what that meant exactly, but... I mean it sort of worked, and at least you got THAT much. And the game reflected that. In Far Cry 2, it was more or less the same thing, except you could eventually buy this thing from the Weapon Shop which allowed you to be more camouflaged. It seemed to make a difference.
But there's nothing in GRW which explains even that.
I mean, the whole "Stay out of line of sight" thing is easy enough to understand. That's just common sense, really. I get it. But it just seems like there ought to be more. All the tools are there for there to be more, and maybe there is more. Like with the Light/Shadow thing. You say it's there, but I see no evidence of it. It's little things like that.
I dunno... I mean, folks say it's something to do with bad AI, but I just don't buy that. Sure, there are some weird things with the AI, but this... what I'm talking about isn't an AI problem. It's a feature problem. I want the game to let me play stealth the way I have always played stealth in most any game I've ever played which has stealth in it, and it just won't let me do that. If it's deeper than that. Fine. But I need something in the game to explain to me where these new and deep thresholds are so I know what I need to do.
Banned
WOW, you two really delve into it and it is great and refreshing to see. I am simple folk but I do grasp a lot of what you are saying and there is a lot of truth but i would never be able to explain as clear as you why I think this makes sense or this doesn't and the truth is... why bother when you two are making more sense than anybody has before!
Member
One other thing I think needs to be mentioned that really screws up my enjoyment of this game:
There's a pattern I've seen a lot. I see it mostly when I'm trying to do Tier One stuff, because I die a lot more frequently.
When you've been spotted, your Squad AI doesn't do anything. They just stand there. You have to manually tell them to engage. If this were a simple click of the button, maybe this wouldn't be so bad. But it isn't. You have to fumble through the Command Wheel, and it's not the easiest thing to get to, and select for them to do something. Except there's no time to do any of this, because the second you're engaged, the Enemy knows exactly where you are, and the whole town just blows you to hell and back.
So, what happens? You get overrun, and you die pretty quick before you even have time to react to what even happened.
Then what happens after you've been incapacitated? Your Squad AI suddenly switches on automatically, they kill everything in sight (and I mean everything) and they revive you.
This has happened so many times, I don't even know how many times it's happened. All I know is, I can describe the situation plain as day, because I've experienced it so often. I can repeat the process over and over again on purpose if I wanted to.
If you're engaged, the Squad AI needs to go loud by default.
Why?
Because you have no control over whether or not they're spotted, apparently, and if they're spotted, ALL the AI looks directly at you, even if you're on the other side of the map, and they take you down.
1. Make Squad AI automatically engage once Spotted. At least give us an option to toggle Passive or Aggressive mode.
2. Make camouflage mean something.
3. Give us more feedback understanding for Stealth in Light/Dark and Sound.
I would be happy with this game if those three items were met.
Member
I'm making the painful mistaking of tackling Tier 1, too, and it only serves to highlight how the enemies are all just Robocop in combat. I've actually had a guy fill up his recognition meter and down me before my character could complete his "lifting gun to fire" animation to even begin firing back.
The fact that one guy spotting you is enough for absolutely everyone in the field to have an instant bead on your head is also broken. Sometimes I wonder if they actually have some ghost recon tech in their doorags, considering they all seem to have some sort of psychic connection with each other.
In the absolute best case, if even a strand of your squared away dome is in an enemy's stupidly huge field of view, then, at the very very LEAST, one bullet WILL hit you, no exceptions. In the worst case, which is just about [I]every[/I ]case, they'll curve every single bullet fired from their weapon to nail you with impunity, whether they're zeroing in way that makes their miraculous aim somewhat believable, or firing from the hip while running in a dead sprint across the street. It couldn't be more obvious how fake enemy "ballistics" are, what with your shots actually having travel time and dropoff while their rounds are already in your body the atosecond their eyes are turned to you.
I'd be fine if enemies on higher difficulties were actually smarter and employed more effective tactics, but the devs just decided to just give them aimbots and call it a day. This game's combat simply wasn't designed at all for being played on anything above advanced.
Member
That's a pretty accurate statement if I ever read one, and I've noticed just about the same thing. Realistic is just bananas, and Tier One... it's not so bad at first. But once you start hitting around the Level 40 range, it's pretty ridiculous. You go stealth or you go home. It's just that simple. I turned it off once it started to feel like I couldn't manage any of the Resource Missions. The one where you have to protect the Radio Relay? Doing that on Tier One around level 40... I don't know how anyone is expected to do that with the Squad AI.Originally Posted by CALLtheDoctah Go to original post
Advanced Difficulty seems to be about the threshold for me. Removing the Enemy Cloud from the minimap also provides a nice boost to the difficulty on any setting, but some missions (like the Radio Relay) simply can't be done without the Enemy Cloud.
I don't think the game is really effectively designed to support multiple difficulties. I mean, the AI is pretty smart. I don't think this game has an AI problem, really. There might be some whack crap going on with their Field of Vision cones and their Response Times, but otherwise, they're all right.
They feel a little too... I dunno... Like, I'll use an M4, right? Well, I'll blast a Unidad guy with an M4, and I put maybe 3 or 4 rounds in him, and he's down. But then, I go to a G28 or an M14, and they take the same amount of bullets to drop. I don't understand that. It's a higher caliber bullet with a higher penetration rating... but they're taking several shots.
I think another layer which could be interesting is if you could wound the enemy. These guys don't bleed out or really they aren't ever phased. You shoot them, but maybe they get to cover, and they just go like nothing happened. The guns lack impact in that regard.
I feel this has been a pretty productive thread overall. I feel like we're getting to some real stuff, here. I hope the devs are seeing this. Maybe they don't need to respond, but man... I tell ya... some of this stuff is really getting to what's going on.
