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*note that i have 170 reps of experience on the game. my opinions and facts are valid and have been agreed with by a majority of the community that i've shared them with. My feedback needs to be heard.
Thesis: Single dodge chains, faster short range heavy attacks, and a few other tweaks will make shinobi a more balanced character and more enjoyable to play and also play against.
Introduction: I can't really stand people who hate on shinobi. Sure maybe he's annoying depending on the play style. But he's forced to play this way. He doesn't have a lot of options. His kick is slow and react-able, his regular heavies are slow, his ranged game is completely ineffective if you just pay attention. and his zone is trash, it's a free parry. If you get light parried twice, you're dead. his lights are not a true 400ms. they are not as fast as pk zone. he only has 2 hit combos. and they are very telegraphed and predictable when changing guard, which makes them seem slower. and his double dodge is more of a weakness than an advantage, it makes him slower on all his dodge chains and more vulnerable to guard breaks. He's also the easiest character to bully and insta kill. Shinobi really is a bottom tier character, and you can't say he's not just because he's annoying. i would trade the sickle rain out of ranged guard break for a regular heavy (his only circumstantially OP move) if they just fixed everything wrong with him.
Solutions for shinboi:
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Heavy attacks- regular heavy is technically 800ms on the top, and 900ms on the side heavies, however, there is a ranged input buffer of 100ms this delays the input to determine if the attack will be ranged or not, so these heavies end up coming out 900ms-1000ms. If you look at video frame data on youtube, it proves this. He averages 1000ms heavies, which is really bad.
Solution: shinobi's heavies should be coming out at least 800ms. so 700ms to compensate for the buffer, if not faster. He's is a counter attacker, yet his heavies are slow, which means his parries are more unsafe than centurion or gladiatior, who have faster heavies and cannot be guard-broke on a parry attempt.
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Kick- his kick is really slow. it's not as much of an opener as it is a bad trading tool. It's slow enough that you can eat a heavy while using it, which means you're losing a trade. front kick is 500ms, and side kick is 600ms, but if you factor in the double dodge it ends up being a lot slower. probably over 1000ms, but definitely not fast. It is also not a true 50/50 with the guard break mixup. With no lag the kick can be dodged at the last second on reaction. High tier players never fall for it.
Solution: I cannot stress how important this is for shinobi. The solution to all his problems, and not just the kick, is SINGLE DODGE CHAINS. Single dodge chains would mean that shinobi could perform his kick, light attack or heavy attack off a single dodge as opposed to a double dodge and have these moves be true chains so they are not interrupted by guard breaks or he is not trading when he is supposed to be countering. A problem shinobi has is that his dodges and deflect attempts are very unsafe, unsafer than any assassin, even unsafer than conq or valk. The reason for this is that his dodge chains can be interrupted with a free guard break. Compare shinboi's dodge chains to say orochi's dodge light attack. if orochi attempt to dodge or deflect an attack, he has the option to delay a chained light attack and this will counter an enemy if they try to guardbreak him on the dodge. shinobi doesn't have this option. the counter for orochi is either guardbreak the dodge, or if he decides to dodge light, you would have to parry the light to get a punish. so the counter for orochi's dodge and every other assassin is one of these two options, but not for shinboi, it's a guardbreak every time.
As for the speed of the kick itself 500ms is a good speed. side kicks should be 500ms too just like the forward kick. Side kicks are too slow.
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Light attacks: light attacks are relatively easy to parry at higher level play, especially when there is no lag. light attacks are a good speed as it is. The problem with shinobi's light attacks is that they are very telegraphed through his guard stance and this makes attacks appear a lot slower. shinobi's lights don't feel like a true 400ms in comparison to peacekeeper's zone attack. not sure if this is also a lag comp issue but Pk's zone comes out way faster than it should and beat's out shinobi's lights every time. i think this is because Pk's zone bypasses the guard stance switch buffer of 100ms. making it far less anticipated and faster.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitive...ach_character/
here is a link saying that assassins have a 100ms buffer to attack when switching guard with the exception of berserker.
This is what's making shinobi and a lot other characters less effective offensively.
Attacks should start instantly after switching guard, this will help open offense for a lot a players. This also supports why berserkers lights are harder to block and parry and is generally better offensively than other characters, he has no input buffer after switching guard. his light attacks are not easily telegraphed before startup.
Solution: remove the 100ms buffer after switching guard to allow instant startup of attacks. this will not only be good for shinobi but also every other character and will be more essential after lag comp.
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Zone attack- Shinobi's zone attack is only useful for minions. Even if the first attacks hit, the follow up attack is a free parry punish. It's a terrible option for shinobi, and again, only effective if your opponent is not paying attention.
Solution: my recommended solution is make shinobi's zone cancel-able. another option would be to make it like berserkers zone and if the first hit lands so does the last, but i don't think this is a good option as the attack stagger would be too long and open up the opponent too much for external attacks, this is a problem that berserker has now.
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Reown: reown gain is very inconsistent with shinobi as well as other assassins. In dominion i get 3 reown for an assist and and 6-10 reown for kills in group fights. 1v1 reown can be anywere from 10 t0 80 reown. this makes reown very hard to come by for the most part. i've had games where i went 14 and 1 and still only had my second feat. and i've had other games where i got my 4th feat after 5 kills. Typically shinobi struggles to get his 4th feat which he relies on for survival. Getting someone in sickle rain puts them on a platter and you only get 3 reown for the assist. this is robbery. give the man some credit.
Solution: make reown gain more balanced for all assassins.
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Conlusion: People think shinobi doesn't belong in the game and is annoying to fight. And people who play shinobi know that he is very disadvantaged to play as well. So not only is he not fun to play against, he's not as fun to play either, and this can be very disappointing for everyone as he is a really cool hero and can be a lot of fun, circumstantially so. I have some closing thoughts about shinobi and things that should be considered for change if need of balance.
There are aspects of shinobi i am willing to part with in order to make these changes happen, and there are also things I think he could use in return. I will also share changes that will not only help shinobi but all players of the game.
Considerations:
-ranged guard break into sickle rain. this basically allows shinobi to insta kill in group fights, which i personally think can be toxic to the game. Consider making ranged GB into a regular heavy or speed up the attacks. or allow the opponent to get external parries but not blocks while in the animation. this is something to consider as it can be toxic and it not very beneficial for shinobi with only getting 3 reown for the assist in dominion.
-extreme range. shinobi is a ranged character, but his ranged play is generally ineffective unless using it while the opponent is busy or not paying attention. This is a melee combat game and i would rather shinobi have an inside game than this kind of play style that is really annoying to other players and feels like it doesn't belong. Consider reducing shinbois range by a third or so. But in turn make his ranged heavies safer. his recovery is long enough to get a free guard break if you block a ranged heavy. also consider altering the parry punish for his ranged attacks, they are highly punishable. maybe if it didn't knock him to the ground and just pulled him close for a light attack punish. character's are getting light attacks for heavy parries but shinobi get's punished with heavies for using his intended kit.
-shinobi's attack "chains" are connected by dodges, but this makes his chains slower and interruptible, all the more reason for faster heavies. when shinobi throws a ranged heavy and rolls in in for a sickle rain heavy. this move needs to be faster. also consider adding hyper armor to this move.
-consider making stealth a built in feat for shinobi. other character have built in feats such as glad and shaman with larger a stamina pool and faster regen and shaman with healing abilities. with shinobi's low health pool, the bounty hunter feat is pretty essential but you must trade it for steath, and stealth is essential for making ranged attacks effective. he is a ninja after all.
-another built in feat to consider for not just shinobi but all counter attackers or even every character. Pain tolerance. Attack staggers are very powerful in the game right now. if someone lands an attack, it can stagger you and allow another enemy to get a free attack and this has a domino effect which leads to instant death from taking one attack after the other. so after you are hit the first time and you staggered by an attack, incoming attacks should still be unblockable, however, they should still be parryable. this way enemies aren't getting 3 or more free heavies just off one punish, but they can still be rewarded for timing attacks on an opening. it would even encourage them to feint external attacks to bait a parry in stagger. this feature would balance the deathball meta. This is more of an essential change for all character than a consideration.
-consider more attack chains for shinobi. light light heavy heavy. light heavy, etc.
-another consideration is to give every character a 1 bar health buff to compensate for gear stats. this would not only help shinobi but other characters as well.
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Please leave comments and feed back,
Junior Member
Senior Member
The shinobi needs some buffs, killing a shinobi with a pk is quite easy (or at least it is at similar skill level). Even with the health buff, he has much lower damage, and his moveset is easy to counter if you play a fast character.
However, against slower characters, like a lawbringer or warden, the shinobi can just play the kick-backflip game without any risk, and that should be fixed somehow.
Member
Didn't even read because you sounded all high and mighty at the beginning. Shinobi needs nerfs to his kick and back flip (get rid of the armor) also get rid of the quad dash. Some other little stuff needs to be adjusted as well but that's about it for the big stuff. The health buff was enough for him now he is just a unpunishable uncatchable runner that is so stupidly hard to kill in 4v4's.
Member
Member
this video proves 3 of my points in under a minute. I literally got 1 reown for killing a raider. i cannot punish even a raider heavy with a kick, his dodge recovery is 500ms, so he was able to dodge, block my ranged attack and got a free GB. shinobi cannot punish anyone with 500ms dodge recovery or better. I cannot punish PK aramusha, raider, shaman, etc with a kick, they can whiff heavies all day and still dodge my kick. it's a ****ty trading tool, it's a ****ty opener, and it's a ****ty countering tool. BUFF KICK PLS. 500ms all direction single dodge chain. thank you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD7y4egjd9Q
Member
He is forced to run from every fight because he is slow and has no options, you can't punish anyone in group fight. I hate having to run, but there's really no options for him. and you're just flat out wrong about the kick. i wasn't trying to be all high and mighty, i was saying that so people would know i'm not just some noob that doesn't know what he's talking about like yourself. The proof is in the video. can't punish a raider heavy with the kick. it's really that bad, it's supposed to be a countering tool and an opener. it does none of those well because it's 1000ms plus to perform and ends up being a crappy trading tool at best. If you want to protest something OP i suggest the shield basher feat or haymaker, cent and conq do the same amount of damage as shinobis kick with those feats except perform them faster. Conq has safer deflects than shinobi right now, and his bash is a million times better. Shinobi also cannot counter a conq bash with kick.
Senior Member
Jesus, I watched your video, and it's indeed really stupid that you didn't get that kick. They should indeed do something about that, or at the very least should give a dodge attack after the single dodge (I don't play the char, your suggestions are probably far better).
As a pk main, I also hate that renown game assasins have. Taking the killing blow is not that hard, but it basically gives you nothing, in 1v1 I have no opener that can't be blocked (and that means it won't be a 1v1 at the end), and the "contesting the zone" part is just stupid. Killing a few soldiers or boosting a zone gives you the same renown as killing somebody, and it's obvious which one is harder, especially in group fights where you have low range and everyone throws in charged heavies (it's always funny when they guardbreak me at low health, and the shugoki in our team starts to charge up his heavy at the same time the enemy throws his, and it's obvious that he plans to hit the opponent through your body).
Member
Are you on pc? Because I would love to find out if you ever tried too kill a Shinobi in 4v4, he has all feats, without lag comp, and on console? Ill tell you right now its one of the most annoying bs things in the game right now.
Edit: Just seen your vid pc does not = console. We are not playing and having the same experience with the character. He is way different on console.
Senior Member
Wow so modestOriginally Posted by MightyJoeYoungB Go to original post
Anyway maybe he has some weaknesses but his kick can still be sooo annoying as he remove so much stamina and guaranted one bar of dammages..
Plus shinobi's lights easy to parry ??
Try it on console
