1. #41
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
    Get over it... the Swastica is banned in Germany... the Nazi regime there decimated the country and stigmatized it for years.. if they want to ban the symbol of that party.. it's their country. This whole discussion is just stupid. Skin your plane of choice with a swastica.. end of story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This discussion is anything but stupid. What if "Redtails" could not be shown because it may offend rednecks. Should we remove the "Meatballs" from Japanese planes because they commited war crimes in China? Show the planes as they flew and don't pick and choose what can or can't be shown.
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  2. #42
    VW-IceFire's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bigchump:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
    Get over it... the Swastica is banned in Germany... the Nazi regime there decimated the country and stigmatized it for years.. if they want to ban the symbol of that party.. it's their country. This whole discussion is just stupid. Skin your plane of choice with a swastica.. end of story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This discussion is anything but stupid. What if "Redtails" could not be shown because it may offend rednecks. Should we remove the "Meatballs" from Japanese planes because they commited war crimes in China? Show the planes as they flew and don't pick and choose what can or can't be shown. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Certain symbols have become more deeply ingrained than others. Typically because they have been taken to a whole other level of political symbolism. The red roundel on Japanese aircraft is still used even in the modern day and never had the same political cache. It only represents the markings to ID a Japanese aircraft.

    Even so... at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Culturally many more people are sensitive to one symbol than another, to the point that laws have been passed, and the display of that symbol in a commercial product isn't allowed.

    The various other ID symbols and unit designations and so forth aren't affected in any way. Those are the important parts so far as I'm concerned and since the choice is between not selling the product or selling the product with one offensive symbol removed... I think it's a small price to pay.

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by M_Gunz:
    Then the Red Star -as is- should not be in the official release of the game. It is for sale in Poland?
    Maybe put a white circle in the middle? Viola, no longer the same.

    IIRC there was a post before saying the Nationalist Chinese markings won't be allowed in China either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    Like above... the Red star doesn't have the same level of political cache. The Red Star is still used today and in some variation it's used by probably a half dozen nations on their aircraft too. It's not to say that a legacy isn't attached to it... but then by that token we can't use any air force symbols because at some point they all did something morally reprehensible.
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  3. #43
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bigchump:
    This discussion is anything but stupid. What if "Redtails" could not be shown because it may offend rednecks. Should we remove the "Meatballs" from Japanese planes because they commited war crimes in China? Show the planes as they flew and don't pick and choose what can or can't be shown. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    But no amount of discussion, moaning or belly-aching on this forum will change the fact that it is illegal to display the swastika in a simulation in Germany and a number of other countries that are a significant market for this sim.

    If it's so important to you wait until the sim is released and make a skin or simply don't buy it.

    If you want to change the laws where they are banned, then immigrate, become a citizen and then follow the political process required to change those laws.

    It's easy! Cheers!
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  4. #44
    Bearcat99's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bigchump:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
    Get over it... the Swastica is banned in Germany... the Nazi regime there decimated the country and stigmatized it for years.. if they want to ban the symbol of that party.. it's their country. This whole discussion is just stupid. Skin your plane of choice with a swastica.. end of story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This discussion is anything but stupid. What if "Redtails" could not be shown because it may offend rednecks. Should we remove the "Meatballs" from Japanese planes because they commited war crimes in China? Show the planes as they flew and don't pick and choose what can or can't be shown. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I beg to differ.. for the exact reason stated below.....

    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Skoshi Tiger:
    But no amount of discussion, moaning or belly-aching on this forum will change the fact that it is illegal to display the swastika in a simulation in Germany and a number of other countries that are a significant market for this sim.

    If it's so important to you wait until the sim is released and make a skin or simply don't buy it.

    If you want to change the laws where they are banned, then immigrate, become a citizen and then follow the political process required to change those laws.

    It's easy! Cheers! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Not only that.. comparing the markings of one unit of one of many nations on one side of the war to the swastica.. which was emblazoned upon everything the Nazis did and so connected in the minds of people to the Nazis that even though we know that it was an ancient symbol that had nothing to do with world conquest and genocide.. that is what most people think when they see it.. and of course the next thing they think of is ... Germans... That's why the swastica was banned in Germany by Germans.. The meatball was the symbol for the nation of Japan... Just as the iron cross was the symbol for Germany... the swastica was the symbol for the Nazis ... who caused utter ruin to thier country and the deaths of tens of millions... Apples and oranges... and please don't think that I am so narrow minded or shallow that you can toss out a lame analogy like "Redtails" and I am supposed to see your point... In this case... it isn't going to happen.... andit isn't UBI's or 1C's or anyones "fault"..
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  5. #45
    zardozid's Avatar Senior Member
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    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bigchump:
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
    Get over it... the Swastica is banned in Germany... the Nazi regime there decimated the country and stigmatized it for years.. if they want to ban the symbol of that party.. it's their country. This whole discussion is just stupid. Skin your plane of choice with a swastica.. end of story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This discussion is anything but stupid. What if "Redtails" could not be shown because it may offend rednecks. Should we remove the "Meatballs" from Japanese planes because they commited war crimes in China? Show the planes as they flew and don't pick and choose what can or can't be shown. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


    Their is a Big difference in these symbols you speak of...The swastika is a symbol for a political party. It wasn't a Unit marking or a symbol of national recognition.

    And this is as a stupid discussion...maybe you don't remember this, but "IL2 1946" didn't include the dam symbol either...this isn't a new development (its almost 10 years old).
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  6. #46
    A simulation is no place for politics.
    The a/c should be modeled as close as possible to the original.
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  7. #47
    <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bigchump:
    A simulation is no place for politics.
    The a/c should be modeled as close as possible to the original. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
    You got it: '(...) as close a possible (...)'.
    Swastika = not possible.
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  8. #48
    Oleg has no choice as he is running a business. Whatever his view is it is irrelevant as it would be very bad for his company to not have the game sold to potently large markets. Especially considering the small market this game has compare to more popular types.

    In other words, if you like having these games then this has to be the case because of the world as it is.

    However that should not stop us from discussing the political and moral merit of such banning. And I do not think it is a bad thing to present argument and ideas as here long as we remember the reality regarding the game. It has no choice.

    Now my political and moral view on this is that free speech is more important than not causing offence.

    I do not think it is a right to not be offended because it is impossible to achieve and offence is always personal. There is no way you can be sure a Jewish person would be offended by having a certain symbol in this game. There is equally no way you can also know that someone who lived through the blitz would not be offended at portraying those events in what is basically a fun shooting game. And there is no way to justify saying that one person’s offence is more important than another’s. If they are both strongly offended are you going to say one person’s feelings are more important?

    The idea that you can’t do something because it might offend someone soon shows it’s absurdity with the slightest bit of thought. To not offend anyone would make expressing any view impossible. You could have none of the entertainment we have or any discussion about anything. Let alone important things.

    Now banning the symbols of oppressive and immoral regimes seems hypocritical and counterproductive to me. Every single one of any of the worst and most reprehensible political regimes or dictators extensively used limiting freedom of speech as a tool to maintain power. They also limited countless other freedoms in the same spirit. Using their tools to try and prevent their types of ideas is stupid.

    By doing so you are fostering the same kind of thinking. The idea that opposing ideas should be silenced rather than addressed. The idea that people should follow your idea and not support it by drawing their own conclusions. The idea that your morals beliefs and ideas are so important and superior that any others must be legally supressed. In effect it the attempt at thought control and to having your will done. It is exactly what all those regimes did.

    The price of liberty is excess. That you allow the most hideous and offensive ideas to be voiced and protect their right to be heard. But in sporting the right to free speech you will always be in opposition to anybody who would create such a nightmare as those evils of the past.

    The nightmares of the future will not have the symbols of old and may not arise in similar ways. They may stem from what sounds like a reasonable position. You can’t know what something may become in time. But they will always use the same tools to control and oppress.

    Take away the tools before they can get them and they will never be in power.
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  9. #49
    Now what part of it is by law forbidden to use that smybol do you not understand? If you want to change it, you have to be a German citzen, set yourself up for vote and be voted in. Otherwise you can discus over hundreds of pages why or why not it is allowed it will not change. Have that symbol on the game is automatically forbidden to be sold here in Germany, as simple as that, and you can find it un fitting or not that is a fact, and governments are not going to give a care what some gamers might think of it.
    I really do not understand what there is to discuss about, on every forum about IL2 CoD the sam silly discussion. It is forbidden and thats it. If that does not sink in then maybe you should have a look some where else for help.
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  10. #50
    I think this thread is done, and ready.
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