-
Moderator
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stiletto-:
What I find funny about IL-2, is that more people get upset about chute shooting than having swastikas burned into the rudders on their planes or their enemies planes.
People want swastikas because its authentic but if you chute kill someone (and shooting and killing is the point of this game and real life) its barbaric. Go figure? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats why you shoot them before the get thier chute open
-
Senior Member
-
Senior Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stiletto-:
People want swastikas because its authentic but if you chute kill someone (and shooting and killing is the point of this game and real life) its barbaric. Go figure? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Because the swastika, a shape sprayed on the plane with a bit of paint, doesn't automatically define the pilot as barbaric. Shooting a defenseless pilot in his parachute does (ok he could have done it because he saw it being done to his comrades etc but nevertheless...) I thought that would be rather obvious.
Why not do away with red stars because of their connection to Stalin? Or the Rising Sun because of it's connection with Japanese war crimes? Or the RAF roundel because of Dresden? Or the US stars and bars because of the atomic bombs?
-
Banned
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Metatron_123:
Why not do away with red stars because of their connection to Stalin? Or the Rising Sun because of it's connection with Japanese war crimes? Or the RAF roundel because of Dresden? Or the US stars and bars because of the atomic bombs? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps you should read more history or take your time doing so. Hint: find out who started the war, was most active, and why.
-
Member
Unfortunately we're only NOW starting to find out the truth of history - and what is becoming abundantly clear is that much of it has been hidden to us to further the political aims of various parties.
I am adamant in my opposition of picking and choosing 'pieces' of history to suppress or hide. Let everything be known, not just that which is chosen for us to know - because in secrecy and suppression lay the foundations of ignorance.
-
Senior Member
@M_Gunz, If you mean who was most active in extermination, Stalin was at least on a par with Hitler.
It's obvious to any historian that to present the combatants as clearly black and white, good and evil is childish at best...
I am i no way a nazi sympathizer, but at the same time I find the superstitious loathing of a symbol that is far older than national socialism rather foolish. It's just a symbol. I'd rather focus on the actual events, rather then the graphic design that accompanied them.
Coming back to aerial combat, and the morality of shooting someone hanging in his parachute:
If you think it's a case of 'it's war, anything goes, shooting pilots in their parachutes was normal' well, I'm sure many of them men who were actually there would not agree... Men like Pierre Clostermann and Erich Hartmann would never have done that. I don't want to idealize the air war, but it has been often mentioned that due to the mechanized nature of combat, many pilots felt that they were disabling machines, and were disgusted by the prospect of killing somebody. I'm not saying that every pilot was a gallant chivalrous knight, but simply that the level of abstraction applied to the killing in air to air combat, somewhat distanced the participants from the horrors that their colleagues on the ground were experiencing. And within this context, there was an opportunity to act in a humane way, and therefore shooting someone dangling from his parachute is frowned upon.
If you want to make a point, do so with arguments and not sneering, patronizing comments.
edit: @PaulWf, I fully agree.
-
Banned
Who had the history of crossing borders to invade first? I need only black and white to say? Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Holland, Belgium, Luxembourg, France, a try at Great Britain, Norway, Yugoslavia, Greece, Russia, where all else?
Did the leaders of the other countries write books and make speeches about taking over the world? Did they have a special political-military arm that conducted 'ethnic cleansing'? Did they set up death camps after finding out they couldn't shoot 'undesirables' fast enough or run factories with slave labor who worked until they dropped, all as part of a 'Master Plan'? Did they declare a long term plan to wipe out all but people with one selected set of race traits?
That is just a partial list of the why that symbol is so hated. Maybe you were out that day at school or maybe it's just no big deal to you, not when you want to see wings painted just so, not when it is more important to you that the published game have it so than any consideration for others. Ooooohhhh! Black, white, gray... those are Nazi Swastikas!
I try to tell you. That symbol that for 1000's of years was for good luck quickly became a symbol for hate, death, genocide to the same people who previously counted it as for luck.
And against that you want to measure what was done to stop the Axis and say we should not show -any- country's symbols?
Tell you what. When Poland bans the Red Star I will petition Oleg to remove those from his games. When Japan bans the US aircraft symbols I will do the same.
-
Senior Member
History often offends.
You can spay paint over yours if you like, I don't care to do so.
No offence meant there M_Gunz, everyone to his own opinion.
cheers.
.
-
Senior Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Metatron_123:
@M_Gunz, If you mean who was most active in extermination, Stalin was at least on a par with Hitler.
It's obvious to any historian that to present the combatants as clearly black and white, good and evil is childish at best...
I am i no way a nazi sympathizer, but at the same time I find the superstitious loathing of a symbol that is far older than national socialism rather foolish. It's just a symbol. I'd rather focus on the actual events, rather then the graphic design that accompanied them.
Coming back to aerial combat, and the morality of shooting someone hanging in his parachute:
If you think it's a case of 'it's war, anything goes, shooting pilots in their parachutes was normal' well, I'm sure many of them men who were actually there would not agree... Men like Pierre Clostermann and Erich Hartmann would never have done that. I don't want to idealize the air war, but it has been often mentioned that due to the mechanized nature of combat, many pilots felt that they were disabling machines, and were disgusted by the prospect of killing somebody. I'm not saying that every pilot was a gallant chivalrous knight, but simply that the level of abstraction applied to the killing in air to air combat, somewhat distanced the participants from the horrors that their colleagues on the ground were experiencing. And within this context, there was an opportunity to act in a humane way, and therefore shooting someone dangling from his parachute is frowned upon.
If you want to make a point, do so with arguments and not sneering, patronizing comments.
edit: @PaulWf, I fully agree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fairly simple, you can chat over a 1000 pages, that will <span class="ev_code_RED">NOT</span> change the laws in various countries, so either except it, or let it be. As simple as that, what you do privately with skins etc. is a totally differant cup of tea. Got to love these threads that regularly pop up, always the say arguements, and? National laws have never been changed due to various forum whinings.
-
Senior Member
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RSS-Martin:
Fairly simple, you can chat over a 1000 pages, that will <span class="ev_code_RED">NOT</span> change the laws in various countries, so either except it, or let it be. As simple as that, what you do privately with skins etc. is a totally differant cup of tea. Got to love these threads that regularly pop up, always the say arguements, and? National laws have never been changed due to various forum whinings.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
+1. Well said Martin.
This has nothing to do with any 'political correctness'. The post-war German state has had laws banning the display of Nazi symbols for over sixty years. If Oleg had included them the game could not be sold in Germany.
These laws were not forced on the post-war German state. After the aberration of National-Socialism they were brought in as part of the very successful effort to rehabilitate and restore Germany to it's rightful place as a beacon of freedom and enlightenment and an economic powerhouse for peace and prosperity within the concert of nations which made up western Europe.