Conqueror balance issues. | Forums

[EIGHTYYARDS NYC]

As a WL fighting conq feels like im facing an evil doppelganger of myself with more powerful abilities.

And knowing he can shield bash me with total impunity is beyond frustrating.

Hyper armor?

[Hormly]

Hyper armor?

Yes i have hyper armor and he doesnt. I cling to that thought at night as i clutch a stuffed animal to my chest...

....that tin plated bastard will never have my hyper armor... they would never give it to him...

........would they?!

[EIGHTYYARDS NYC]

Yes i have hyper armor and he doesnt. I cling to that thought at night as i clutch a stuffed animal to my chest...

....that tin plated bastard will never have my hyper armor... they would never give it to him...

........would they?!

Make a joke if you must, but the bottom line is EVERY character has something the other doesnt. They all have something that some other person finds annoying or unfair, etc. Its almost like some of you have never played a fighting game.

[Aurockson]

If you seriously think shaman is above pk then I really question your opinion.

Could be wrong but is Shaman not literally a upgraded pk? Better lunge attacks and from ANY direction Same basically everything else except gains health on hits on bleeders...

How is shaman not just a superior Peacekeeper?

I genuinely don't know so don't take this as me saying "No screw you you're wrong" I'm just genuinely interested.

EDIT: Actually I guess shaman doesn't have the ridiculous zone speed but other than that...?

[The.Witness.]

If you seriously think shaman is above pk then I really question your opinion.

Nah it's clear that PK is above shaman. But Shaman is still S tier for me. (The list I gave wasn't listed in a particular order, just by overall tier)

[The.Witness.]

I trust skor's opinion over yours. More so since his opinion is weighted as mostly true by a majority of good players who play in comp.
Shaman isn't S. She's A.

Yes zerk doesn't have an option select like pk's. No one does. That's why he's second and pk is first. That being said Zerks HA'ed 400ms lights from neutral make him really strong. Here is what skor has said specifically on zerk "Berserker - Extremely potent offense with very easy access to 400ms hyper armor light attacks. Slightly weaker vs conq than pk due to not having as long of a back dodge. Goes about even with pk and conq and beats everything else."

Also zerks dodge recovery is 600ms across the board. that's pretty standard for assassins. Only pk and shaman are different in this regard. zerks back dash distance isn't as good though.
Here is skor's tier list with explanations.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gaY/edit#gid=0

If you seriously think shaman is above pk then I really question your opinion.

There's a lot I agree with Skor and a lot I disagree too. Mainly when it comes to duels.
First of I would switch Zerker and Shaman position.
Then I would also get Raider, Shugo, and Lawbringer to B tier, mainly due to Raider's low dodge vulnerability, LB's shove on block, and Shugo overall because of his hyper armor. I believe that Shugo is C tier when he faces up à good turtle, but can easily get to B tier in other situations. Not to mention is one if not the only effective shaman great counter.
The rest however seems pretty clear and I think everyone can easily agree on it.

[Knight_Raime]

Could be wrong but is Shaman not literally a upgraded pk? Better lunge attacks and from ANY direction Same basically everything else except gains health on hits on bleeders...

How is shaman not just a superior Peacekeeper?

I genuinely don't know so don't take this as me saying "No screw you you're wrong" I'm just genuinely interested.

EDIT: Actually I guess shaman doesn't have the ridiculous zone speed but other than that...?

Shaman has unfavorable matchups. pk has none.
Pk's damage profile is better.
Pk's zone option select is the strongest thing in the game.

Option select is where one input covers several instances. Pk can zone input any attack she wants to defend herself against. and either she parries it or the zone hits and interrupts the hit. Either way pk wins and she cancels the second half. due to the 400ms speed of the cancel no attack beats it. It's one weakness (sort of) is hyper armor. But she can cancel the second half of the zone and recover fast enough that she can deflect the attack Barring it's not an unblockable. even zerkers heavy feint into light from neutral.
Also unlike shaman pk can land/whiff her first light and the second light is pretty much guaranteed on most players even really good ones.
She still has some of the highest damaging punishes as well.

Shaman has a lot more happening in her kit. But as I tried to explain to trenk that all of her options have hard punishes if read properly. Pk doesn't have that. Even if you manage to parry her zone you still get really nothing from it. I didn't really touch on everything about her kit. But basically quality>quantity in this case. PK doesn't have an expansive moveset with a lot of options. But she's very safe to play and virtually shuts down any kind of aggression against her. If she didn't have her zone option select she'd probably be low S tier or top A tier imo.

[Hormly]

Make a joke if you must, but the bottom line is EVERY character has something the other doesnt. They all have something that some other person finds annoying or unfair, etc. Its almost like some of you have never played a fighting game.

No the bottom line is that the SB on conq being 100% safe against certain characters is a huge flaw in fighting game fundamentals.

An it will eventually be nerfed to have more recovery time

[Howard_T_J]

As an Orochi player. I feel the conquer buff was good for him. Made him more playable against more classes. I don't struggle at all with them. They're very easy to punish as Orochi.
Had to get use to his new kit. But to me he has not progressed to be strong against Orochi.

I've slowly figured out how to best the ok. But it takes a lot of room and baiting. Orochi can't beat her at the game they both play. Shaman is slow enough that I can best most of them. But I am coming to hate her zone attack. She seemingly gets a free light after it. I don't know if this because of latency or not.

[Knight_Raime]

Nah it's clear that PK is above shaman. But Shaman is still S tier for me. (The list I gave wasn't listed in a particular order, just by overall tier)

Thanks for the clarification. was seriously confused.

There's a lot I agree with Skor and a lot I disagree too. Mainly when it comes to duels.
First of I would switch Zerker and Shaman position.
Then I would also get Raider, Shugo, and Lawbringer to B tier, mainly due to Raider's low dodge vulnerability, LB's shove on block, and Shugo overall because of his hyper armor. I believe that Shugo is C tier when he faces up à good turtle, but can easily get to B tier in other situations. Not to mention is one if not the only effective shaman great counter.
The rest however seems pretty clear and I think everyone can easily agree on it.

I don't see how zerk is worse than shaman. Shaman has no options against pk. Shaman can't crack conq. His zone beats anything she attempts to do and forward bash aggression prevents her from using bite/pounce. and her dodge/dash attacks are full block food. Gladiator's zone beats her mix up games and he generally prevents shaman from doing much mixing up due to his range and dodge bashes. A tier hero wise kensei prevents basically all with shaman due to how strong his dash is versus most mix ups and his range. Highlander in OF will literally ruin her. I could see her maybe doing decent against shinobi/warlord. Mainly because shin has no offensive options and warlords defensive game isn't the best.

She's exactly where she's at because of matchups. Something I don't know if you're considering. Raider's mix up is beat by dodging. And there are a lot of assassins above him. His speed is the other thing that keeps him down. Yes his dodge GB is good. But it's situational and can't be relied upon. LB's shove on block grants him nothing beyond poke damage and even that is negated by assassins because of deflect. Goki's HA is all he has. and considering how easily it can be played around it's not good enough to move his position. Not to mention his poor recovery both on some attacks and his dodges. Also his HA mechanic actually hurts him against some heros due to the double punishes they can land on him due to it.

Going off of that statement any hero who can easily access armor for trading is a good counter to shaman. So zerk deff is. Kensei as well (also cause of range and his dodge attack.)