Further refining the Parry Changes | Forums

[bob333e]

I can't agree. I find it odd that you know speed alone shouldn't dictate a punish (as noted by pepsi's suggestion that you were not okay with) but you come up with this.

Still a more reasonable train of thought than you wanting a hyperarmored unblockable heavy finisher on Warden, aha. As a Warden main I find this suggestion both hilarious and unnecessary but I deigned throwing a comment about it, no point in clashing two perspectives. Which is the issue here.

I don't think anything other than lights should get a light parry punish. As currently those hit pretty hard still. Think of it this way. One of the reasons we had the parry changes was because people were afraid of using other attacks because of the punishment for using an attack that wasn't safe/guaranteed. This caused people to turtle up and only use those specific options or feint bait themselves to get a hard hitting punish.

By making zones and/or dodge attacks (I know you didn't say dodge attacks but i'm throwing it in for reasons) light parry punishes you're effectively limiting the options of moves one has. No one is going to risk say wardens zone if you could just parry it for 40+ damage. Zones come from the same side. and a handful of them can't even be feinted. And you're asking for a bigger punish on those already risky moves.

But lets grab some data...
Warden. Has no opener. zone does 20 damage. Non feintable. 500ms. Essentially asking all wardens out there to rely on top light only as side light is 600ms and side heavies are 800ms.
Orochi. 20 damage at 500ms. Gets rid of some of his bait options. Forces him to rely on top lights more. Wouldn't want to use this as a punishment because it would be very risky and is never guaranteed outside maybe storm rush.
Shinobi. Known for not having options beyond his lights to attack in majority of instances. Zone is 500ms. can't be canceled. nets you 15 damage. 15. No.
Aramusha. 15 damage. Has no opener. zone in itself offers little mix up.

I can understand wanting pk's zone to be more punishing as it is apart of her option select which is a BIG reason why she is still so strong. But personally i'd rather wait till lag comp is turned on and see how people deal with it. And if it's still an issue bringing it up to 500ms imo would be better.

I ultimately understand that there's no middle ground: either the 400ms zones remain safe to throw and minimally punishable, or they could be heavily punishable should they get parried and henceforth not that safe to throw, especially at higher levels of play (which I assume is what crossed your mind as you responded to this thread).

Some dodge attacks are already punishable with heavies on parry, such as Zerk's and Orochi's. Although my thread does not relate in any way to how dodge attacks work and punishing them should work, I'll still disagree because dodge attacks, should they become safer to dish out, will effectively render assassins a lot more powerful in general.

Back to the point. Warden's and Orochi's zones are as aforementioned effectively safe to throw on reaction. This alone still makes them hard to parry. You over-exaggerated the rest of your sentence here. By making their zones punishable with a heavy on parry (if and when they get parried), you in no way force them to completely forget about their zone attacks. We're not talking Highlander-level of telegraphed zones here.

It's less about how much damage they dish out, and more about how safe are they to dish out, compared to the rest of the kit. If we're basing this argument solely on damage trade-offs then by your logic, the heaviest-hitting attacks should be the ones punishable with top heavies on parry, effectively reversing what the parry changes had just fixed this season.

It's not about whether they can be cancelled, either. It's about how often you can catch your opponent off-guard with them, safely so. A Warden or an Orochi landing three consecutive zones on you in the same round has effectively tamed you to their will. You're unlikely to adequately punish the 4th zone because they already landed three.

This thread did not stress specifically around PK, either. I get PK's cancel after the first hit is abusable but it's how her kit is designed. Rather than nerfing her own kit, these super-fast, often-safe-to-throw attacks should be more punishable on parry, if and when they get parried.

It's completely fine to disagree. This was a thought I had come up with on a whim, and didn't even bother looking at frame data or doing intensive calculations. Just debating a thought. By all means, take the entirety of this thread with a grain of salt. It's completely fine to debate unrefined thoughts because further discussions may or may not lead to actual solid and logical suggestions later; provided a discussion had been born in the first place. Not a clash of perspectives that borders on prejudice and misconception. Thanks for your input still, much appreciated.

[Knight_Raime]

I don't see how you could possibly take issue with my warden suggestion beyond (I dislike unblockables/armor as a concept) which I know you're not...close minded enough to believe.
It functions the exact same way as is his top heavy is used for now. Though instead of the opponent waiting to block either the ripped heavy or feinted into light or cgbing your feint into GB attempt they either have to be ready to parry or dodge away. This was the exact same situation zerker was in with his heavy finisher from top. and buffing it didn't change his kits style or make him OP. So unless you can explain why you think it's not needed/a bad idea i'm just going to assume this was written up as a playful jab and not meant to be taken seriously.

500ms* pk's is the only 400ms zone. I'm always looking at things in a duelist perspective first and foremost. Not only because I exclusively duel but because 1 on 1 combat is the basis of combat. Group fights are so dynamic and different discussion for them has to be considered directly and mentioned. Rather than offhandedly mentioning something with no context. Zerks and orochi's dodge attacks shouldn't be lights. They should be heavies. In the case of Berzerker whiff canceling/baiting is a huge aspect of his kit. That largely goes un used just because the punishment on it is really high. And rochi already has little reason to dash attack to begin with because he gets no combos from it and it's only 18 damage. The fact that he can be hit super hard for this just further deters him from using it.

Which just sounds like you're against buffing assassins. Everyone should receive buffs and nerfs to some degree. If you want assassins to be less powerful in one area (ala dash recovery/distance) then you have to buff them else where to compensate. Assassins have poor defense due to reflex guard and less health. And their slippryness (recovery and distance) is actively being called for nerfs. Which is justified. But by making all dash attacks highly punishable "just cause" you're essentially asking people who want to play assassins to pick a worse character all for the sake of having highly situational strong punishes (ala deflect.) I'm not saying your concern isn't valid. I am asking you to actually look at a bigger picture.

They're safe on raw bashes. Or slow mix ups. Not general feint games. I didn't over exadurate. it's important to understand and respect that the damage they get from their "safe" zone is barely comparable to most heavy parry punishes. On top of the fact that some lack a feint option for feint baits. And that it comes from the same direction. By writing off these important understandings it only goes to show you don't wish to hear a valid side of discussion. And that's blatently false. Wardens zone used to be punishable on block with a GB. A GB netted a heavy and worse when it came to damage. That's 100% why wardens zone was not used till they removed that.

There is nothing safe about throwing an attack that's highly predictable that in some cases has no feint bait options. If someone is repeatedly throwing zones at you and you're constantly eating it that's on you. Not the attack. I mentioned pk's zone specifically because it's the only "op" zone in the game that fits this discussion. (glads doesn't count because it's a bash first but it's a problem and needs nerfing.) Pk's zone if it landed you a heavy on parry punish would be 100% understandable because of how strong her zone is via option select. (you can even zone cancel into deflect on HA attacks. it's insane.)

To wrap up.
Feint baits are an important aspect of the games fighting as a whole. zones without this are less useful universally than zones that have this option.
Generally speaking when a move is considered safe it's because of 3 aspects. Speed. predictability or lack their of. and mix up potential. Zones at most have 2 of those.
And they expend half your stamina for it. Which is more than fair in my opinion.

If we looked at a zone individually that you think should be more punishable that's a discussion I can have. But making zones as a whole more punishable to me just doesn't sit right. The damage/stamina cost alone to me means it's not something that can and should be relied upon in a fight to use more than twice. Added to the fact that static guard heros need only to rest their guard in the direction of the zone to negate the zone further cements this not being a good idea. Plus giving a heavy on a zone parry would buff assassins decently. Which you seem to be opposed to given your earlier statement. :>

[bob333e]

Whoa. I expected a low-blow one-liner and an opt out, but you went through the effort of typing all that. I appreciate.

No, no playful jabs involved. But, I will not debate any of your points. At least not now. I'm sorry, but when you walk up to a thread (which from its title should give you the idea that such a title with such little text in the original post was merely skimming the surface of the whole concept and wasn't a full three-day train of thoughts dumped inside one text) with a Holier Than Thou attitude, I tend to get annoyed real quick. I don't know who you've been arguing with recently, either on here or on Reddit, but I sniff hostility all too well.

I might reconsider debating your points, but it won't be in here, this thread is already lost. It's not an in-depth thread anyway. We can reopen another one later. So I'll keep this short:

I'm not saying your concern isn't valid. I am asking you to actually look at a bigger picture.

There wasn't any concern in my original post. Merely a thought that could have used a proper discussion to refine it. But I chose a bad time I suppose. Someone's been arguing with someone and is still boiling off.

By writing off these important understandings it only goes to show you don't wish to hear a valid side of discussion.

Discussion is on hold, yeah.

[Devils-_-legacy]

I didn't agree so I didn't want to comment as im happy with where parry changes and there reward but I agree with peps post more but i find it funny you go from (Feedback and discussion appreciated.) To someone disagreeing and you jump very quickly to (Discussion is on hold, yeah.)

[bob333e]

I didn't agree so I didn't want to comment as im happy with where parry changes and there reward but I agree with peps post more but i find it funny you go from (Feedback and discussion appreciated.) To someone disagreeing and you jump very quickly to (Discussion is on hold, yeah.)

Indeed, me too. It all depends how people interact with this post, really. I have no intention whatsoever to engage in prejudiced arguments. It's the way he walked in. Inbefore this turns into a pissing contest of who's more knowledgeable on the matter. Which isn't at all what I intended. Guy can't discuss peacefully, but this is an open forum so, can't really blame him. Gotta expect these things I guess.

[ChampionRuby50g]

I didn't agree so I didn't want to comment as im happy with where parry changes and there reward but I agree with peps post more but i find it funny you go from (Feedback and discussion appreciated.) To someone disagreeing and you jump very quickly to (Discussion is on hold, yeah.)

I don’t think it was more the disagreement, but the tone in which it was disagreed (is that a word) in was not favourable.

I’d like to discuss but I really can’t go in depth, I’m working during the day and all my replies are just ones I write out quickly when I check my phone. Right now I’m on smoko so got a longer break, but it still isn’t enough time for me to go in depth and really analyse points sadly. I try to do that when I get home, but then playing the game itself takes priority lol.

[bob333e]

I don’t think it was more the disagreement, but the tone in which it was disagreed (is that a word) in was not favourable.

I’d like to discuss but I really can’t go in depth, I’m working during the day and all my replies are just ones I write out quickly when I check my phone. Right now I’m on smoko so got a longer break, but it still isn’t enough time for me to go in depth and really analyse points sadly. I try to do that when I get home, but then playing the game itself takes priority lol.

I already PM two mods to close down this thread. By all means, if you wish to discuss any further, do send a PM. Would hate to have you go through the trouble of typing something on here only to find out it got locked down (which I hope will happen sooner than later).

Yeah, the tone. I'm fine with diverging opinions because they're the starting grounds for good discussions. Alas it didn't work.

[Knight_Raime]

Whoa. I expected a low-blow one-liner and an opt out, but you went through the effort of typing all that. I appreciate.

No, no playful jabs involved. But, I will not debate any of your points. At least not now. I'm sorry, but when you walk up to a thread (which from its title should give you the idea that such a title with such little text in the original post was merely skimming the surface of the whole concept and wasn't a full three-day train of thoughts dumped inside one text) with a Holier Than Thou attitude, I tend to get annoyed real quick. I don't know who you've been arguing with recently, either on here or on Reddit, but I sniff hostility all too well.

I might reconsider debating your points, but it won't be in here, this thread is already lost. It's not an in-depth thread anyway. We can reopen another one later. So I'll keep this short:



There wasn't any concern in my original post. Merely a thought that could have used a proper discussion to refine it. But I chose a bad time I suppose. Someone's been arguing with someone and is still boiling off.



Discussion is on hold, yeah.

Yeah I will apologize about my overall attitude. I still feel like my actual points are good enough for debate.
I've just been having a discussion heavy day and get a little miffed over some things.
If you wish to continue this discussion in pms at a later point i'm fine with this.
And again sorry about being rude.

[UbiJurassic]

As Fady has requested, we will be closing this thread.