Further refining the Parry Changes | Forums

[bob333e]

I honestly believe that when parrying a zone attack, it should act as a light parry; i.e. able to punish with a top heavy (side heavy on some heroes) when a zone is parried.

Exceptions to this rule are:
- Lawbringer
- Centurion
- Raider
- Valkyrie
- Highlander
- Shugoki
- Nobushi

That means if you are using Lawbringer, Centurion, Raider, Valkyrie, Highlander, Shugoki or Nobushi and your zone got parried, it acts as a heavy parry (as it currently is).

On every other hero, it should act as a light parry.

All in all, any zone attack faster than 600ms should act as light parry if parried; and any zone that is 600ms or greater should remain as-is (acts as heavy parry when parried).

I lacked direct frame data at the time of creation of this thread, so if I missed something pertaining to zone attack speeds, I'd be happy to amend this post again.

Feedback and discussion appreciated.

[PepsiBeastin]

Rather than on a per-attack basis, it should be based on attack speed/startup time. It isnt fair that you can parry an orochi side light and get a max parry punish, yet you can parry a faster centurion heavy and get less from it.

[bob333e]

Rather than on a per-attack basis, it should be based on attack speed/startup time. It isnt fair that you can parry an orochi side light and get a max parry punish, yet you can parry a faster centurion heavy and get less from it.

Interesting point. Though if it was that way, I think assassins would suffer even more from such changes. Yeah Centurion's heavies are rather peculiar, they're the fastest heavies. Centurion as a whole is a trainwreck of a kit.

When you're up against Centurion, notice the differences in animations. If it's a "slash", it's a light. If it's more of a "stab", it's a heavy.

I think with the current parry changes, Centurion got rightfully downgraded to where he should be. No need to nerf him further, and your suggestions would render all assassins hitting a stone wall.

Parry changes, as a whole, should not look into nerfing particular classes or attacks; but rather, making punishes fair across the board.

[BTTrinity]

I can agree with this post 100% of the way, other than the first strike of Nobushi's 600ms zone not counting as a heavy.

600ms+ gives a light attack, below 600ms gives a heavy

[bob333e]

I can agree with this post 100% of the way, other than the first strike of Nobushi's 600ms zone not counting as a heavy.

600ms+ gives a light attack, below 600ms gives a heavy

I think in Nobushi's case, it's the startup frames that make it daunting to parry it; rather than the attack speed itself. Her zone's first hit is not really telegraphed, hence why didn't include her in the exception list.

However if we're talking strictly zone attacks, I agree: 600ms+ should yield lights, below 600ms should yield heavies. I think this pretty much goes well with my original post, as I don't think those I listed as exceptions have zones faster than 600ms (I apologise as I lack direct frame data).

[BTTrinity]

I think in Nobushi's case, it's the startup frames that make it daunting to parry it; rather than the attack speed itself.

Im confused what u mean by this.

Nobushi's zone is a little weird though (Not sure if they fixed this) but a while back I remember people bringing up the fact that her zone can be like 25ms slower depending on the direction you use it from.

As previously stated, not sure if its been fixed but: Back in like S2-S3 initiating zone from left guard resulted in the zone taking slightly longer to connect.

Is this what you're referring to?

but initiating the zone in the direction it comes from makes it connect 600ms exactly.

However if we're talking strictly zone attacks, I agree: 600ms+ should yield lights, below 600ms should yield heavies. I think this pretty much goes well with my original post, as I don't think those I listed as exceptions have zones faster than 600ms (I apologise as I lack direct frame data).

Nobushi's zone is exactly 600ms (the same as Aramushas top heavy) which is why I brought up the frame data. I feel like if theres 600ms heavy attacks then, zones that are 600ms should also act as a heavy attack.

Nobushi's zone is a little weird though (Not sure if they fixed this) but a while back I remember people bringing up the fact that her zone can be like 25ms slower depending on the direction you use it from.

As previously stated, not sure if its been fixed but: Back in like S2-S3 initiating zone from left guard resulted in the zone taking slightly longer to connect

but initiating the zone in the direction it comes from makes it connect 600ms exactly.

[bob333e]

Im confused what u mean by this.

Nobushi's zone is a little weird though (Not sure if they fixed this) but a while back I remember people bringing up the fact that her zone can be like 25ms slower depending on the direction you use it from.

As previously stated, not sure if its been fixed but: Back in like S2-S3 initiating zone from left guard resulted in the zone taking slightly longer to connect.

Is this what you're referring to?

but initiating the zone in the direction it comes from makes it connect 600ms exactly.


Nobushi's zone is exactly 600ms (the same as Aramushas top heavy) which is why I brought up the frame data. I feel like if theres 600ms heavy attacks then, zones that are 600ms should also act as a heavy attack.

Nobushi's zone is a little weird though (Not sure if they fixed this) but a while back I remember people bringing up the fact that her zone can be like 25ms slower depending on the direction you use it from.

As previously stated, not sure if its been fixed but: Back in like S2-S3 initiating zone from left guard resulted in the zone taking slightly longer to connect

but initiating the zone in the direction it comes from makes it connect 600ms exactly.

Was referring to the fact that you don't really see the animation coming (of the first hit) even if the attack itself is 600ms. Parrying the second hit is a no-brainer but parrying the first hit is challenging most times.

I'm not sure either whether they fixed this guard stance switch bug on Nobushi's zone; I'm not all too well-versed with how she moves, nor do I recall this mentioned in patch notes. Maybe it's an intended thing with her zone?

Still, you have a good point, zones that are 600ms or greater, should act as heavy parry when parried. I'll amend my original post and add Nobushi to the exception list.

[BTTrinity]

Was referring to the fact that you don't really see the animation coming (of the first hit) even if the attack itself is 600ms. Parrying the second hit is a no-brainer but parrying the first hit is challenging most times.

I'm not sure either whether they fixed this guard stance switch bug on Nobushi's zone; I'm not all too well-versed with how she moves, nor do I recall this mentioned in patch notes. Maybe it's an intended thing with her zone?

Still, you have a good point, zones that are 600ms or greater, should act as heavy parry when parried. I'll amend my original post and add Nobushi to the exception list.

Derp, my b.

For sure, its probably her least-telegraphed move in her kit and is very good against dodge-happy assassins, which is my main use for it. Oddly enough though, her zone is one of the two moves out of her kit that I feel 100% confident in parrying when I see it, because she cant cancel it and NEEDS to commit to the move. (The other being her dodge attacks) then again, probably not that weird cuz shes my main so Im just used to her animations.

I dont think its intended, but I also think it was fixed back when they fixed her guard change speed... I'll have to test and report the next time I get on.

[bob333e]

Derp, my b.

For sure, its probably her least-telegraphed move in her kit and is very good against dodge-happy assassins, which is my main use for it. Oddly enough though, her zone is one of the two moves out of her kit that I feel 100% confident in parrying when I see it, because she cant cancel it and NEEDS to commit to the move. (The other being her dodge attacks) then again, probably not that weird cuz shes my main so Im just used to her animations.

I dont think its intended, but I also think it was fixed back when they fixed her guard change speed... I'll have to test and report the next time I get on.

No problemo, I value your inputs.

Yeah her zone's first hit is definitely among her hardest moves to telegraph, add her new kick as of S5 it became near-guaranteed upon activation, often too quick to react to.

What still gets me in her is when they move into HS and from there jimble the attack indicators from top to side or from side to top and I end up attempting to parry from the wrong side. Though I think this should stay as-is. That tactic is the only half-sure way of ensuring she won't get her lights parried, as her lights are still fairly telegraphed because of her big naginata.

Would love to hear what you find out after you run some tests.

[Knight_Raime]

I can't agree. I find it odd that you know speed alone shouldn't dictate a punish (as noted by pepsi's suggestion that you were not okay with) but you come up with this.

I don't think anything other than lights should get a light parry punish. As currently those hit pretty hard still. Think of it this way. One of the reasons we had the parry changes was because people were afraid of using other attacks because of the punishment for using an attack that wasn't safe/guaranteed. This caused people to turtle up and only use those specific options or feint bait themselves to get a hard hitting punish.

By making zones and/or dodge attacks (I know you didn't say dodge attacks but i'm throwing it in for reasons) light parry punishes you're effectively limiting the options of moves one has. No one is going to risk say wardens zone if you could just parry it for 40+ damage. Zones come from the same side. and a handful of them can't even be feinted. And you're asking for a bigger punish on those already risky moves.

But lets grab some data...
Warden. Has no opener. zone does 20 damage. Non feintable. 500ms. Essentially asking all wardens out there to rely on top light only as side light is 600ms and side heavies are 800ms.
Orochi. 20 damage at 500ms. Gets rid of some of his bait options. Forces him to rely on top lights more. Wouldn't want to use this as a punishment because it would be very risky and is never guaranteed outside maybe storm rush.
Shinobi. Known for not having options beyond his lights to attack in majority of instances. Zone is 500ms. can't be canceled. nets you 15 damage. 15. No.
Aramusha. 15 damage. Has no opener. zone in itself offers little mix up.

I can understand wanting pk's zone to be more punishing as it is apart of her option select which is a BIG reason why she is still so strong. But personally i'd rather wait till lag comp is turned on and see how people deal with it. And if it's still an issue bringing it up to 500ms imo would be better.