Lawbringer, Raider and Shugki Rework | Forums

[Mr_Incredible]

Lawbringer:
*Add Parry Punish Mechanic
*Remove guaranted light after light Block Shove
*Make Shove from neutral 100ms faster and keep guaranted light if not dodged
*Give his Zone Attack hyperarmour.

They are going to make him so much weaker is they do this and his pretty week to begin with if you thing about it. hell he needs it even more on lights blocks because of light spamming people. he has no openers his block shove light is the only thing he has to open people up and get free damage or go into a combo. its very easy to dodge and get away from. His dash shove is very week and speeding it up wont make him much better he will just be another warlord. nothing to open you up with and all he does is dash shove you. Hyper armor zone will do nothing because no one in there right mind would use it in a fight even with hyper armor.

[mrmistark]

I guess in my eyes it’s much similar to the deflect argument.

Of course deflecting takes more skill but the argument is that deflects need to stop chains ect. Because if you counter someone’s attack then you should be able to punish.

All I’m saying is if you keep it AFTER a parry as a separate mechanic then you’re opening the same can of worms but on a gigantic scale. If it doesn’t guarantee you any damage or stamina damage on the opponent or it doesn’t work when OOS then it wouldn’t make that big of a stink other than the argument that they can’t open you up without being able to parry, which will still get some heat behind it as well. Yes your way allows the parry to happen IF they don’t counter, but I’m just throwing out this idea to avoid the backlash this mechanic will get. I feel as a whole people would rather be told you can’t parry something rather than risking a parry and feeling like they’re being punished for punishing a bad calculated attack. That’s just my 2 cents and the problem that I see your way flaring up. I love the idea, but most people probably won’t be able to handle it. I also think it shouldn’t work while OOS personally.

[Col.Bullet]

....hmm.....erm.....yeah.....

This is one of those moments where I think: “WOW that would be an awesome and viable addition”.....

But then at the same time.... “but parry is a very basic core mechanic that I’m not sure should be excluded from some of the most damaging moves in the game”....

But then....”but these moves are SOOO hard to pull off otherwise and we can’t afford to destroy the characters identities with any faster speeds or over armoring ever character. And ugggg.....the amount of unneeded HA this game already has...we can’t be giving HA to every single character”


As you can see, I don’t really know how I feel. I agree that any other attempts to change the characters have a good chance of ruining them and their identity. These hard hitting attacks are very rare to hit, but an attack that damaging kind of should be..? But this also, especially in this rediculously aggressive meta, means a big portion of their kit has a much lower viability than everyone else, which, ALSO in a time of having multiple options with your kit for any given situation, is a serious handicap that can’t be forgiven through speed, UB or HA on almost all attacks, again like others.

Overall I agree with most of what you said, but don’t know if I think this solution is a good direction to go.

I’ve said it in other threads: after the parry changes, Raider went from good to bottom tier, because all he had to do was parry and carry, them UB zone mindgames. Now everyone just blocks everything but zone and to go into tap is so predictable. Shugoki is better off, I was part of the ideas shared previously,so that’s generally how I feel about him. Lawbringer is also not in a great spot either, but has a good property of block shove mixups.

Anyways, i DONT DISAGREE per se.....but I’d rather a non parryable attack more rather than doing an input after someone parried. Don’t let it work on UB, but all other heavies.
This would do multiple very important things: it would make a parry the punish it needs to be. By this I mean that if you parry, you PARRY. You don’t have to worry about performing a basic move in the game. If you parry there shouldn’t be a “HAH GOTCHA!” Counter. A parry is a counter in its own right. Instead I propose that we keep the track of your idea but give this different mechanic a new color, purple? Darker green maybe? Who cares. Anyways, this would give the indication that the move can’t be parried and will give enough preparation for your opponent to try to react. They can eat the chip damage or risk the dodge which they can fient for GB. This would make block damage super prevelant for these guys too.

Basically same concept but 1. It adds better mind games especially if we rank up the chip damage for heavier hitters cause they won’t want to take that damage but dodging is slightly riskier 2. Gives enough warning to be fair, and continuing into fairness 3. Won’t force the “so I’m getting punished for punishing you?!?” Salt that your version would propose if they had parried.

I’d also say that the only exceptions should be revenge activations or those moments when in a 1v2+ situation that you parry an attack and get the parry off a separate attack within the first parry animation. Basically when you get those double parries, if this attack would be one of those, it can be parried within the parry animation, if that makes sense, that way it doesn’t make getting ganked an even more problem than it already is. It’s also important to note I think the bigger boys all could use a little more health in general.

Non-parriable attacks do seem like bandaid however. I'd rather they tweak both parry and feint mechanic to balance it properly against blocking. Noone apparently dares to throw an attack, a heavy one at that, as the OP stated. Because they are seldomely blocked wich, by the way makes this blocking damage stat on weapon gear pointless in higher Level. There the mindset is to not do something that could get you punished instead of risking something for the payoff. 'Safe attacks' I hate that. And yes we do not need even more unblockables crammed everywhere just so they can be canceled into fifteen different things and makes even having them in the first place ridiculous.

I guess in my eyes it’s much similar to the deflect argument.

Of course deflecting takes more skill but the argument is that deflects need to stop chains ect. Because if you counter someone’s attack then you should be able to punish.

All I’m saying is if you keep it AFTER a parry as a separate mechanic then you’re opening the same can of worms but on a gigantic scale. If it doesn’t guarantee you any damage or stamina damage on the opponent or it doesn’t work when OOS then it wouldn’t make that big of a stink other than the argument that they can’t open you up without being able to parry, which will still get some heat behind it as well. Yes your way allows the parry to happen IF they don’t counter, but I’m just throwing out this idea to avoid the backlash this mechanic will get. I feel as a whole people would rather be told you can’t parry something rather than risking a parry and feeling like they’re being punished for punishing a bad calculated attack. That’s just my 2 cents and the problem that I see your way flaring up. I love the idea, but most people probably won’t be able to handle it. I also think it shouldn’t work while OOS personally.

Interesting. I agree, though they should take a look at the underlying mechanics aswell.
Edit: And deflect needs to be looked at too, of course, as many make the informed argument that this interesting (and actually skillful) mechanic is not worth the effort when compared to the almighty heavy parry.

[Illyrian_King]

They are going to make him so much weaker is they do this and his pretty week to begin with if you thing about it. hell he needs it even more on lights blocks because of light spamming people. he has no openers his block shove light is the only thing he has to open people up and get free damage or go into a combo. its very easy to dodge and get away from. His dash shove is very week and speeding it up wont make him much better he will just be another warlord. nothing to open you up with and all he does is dash shove you. Hyper armor zone will do nothing because no one in there right mind would use it in a fight even with hyper armor.

I didn't say, to remove his block shove on light attacks, but just to remove the GUARANTEED light after the block shove. This way it would be pretty counterable again, but still work to at least interrupt light chains.

With the parry punish he could go more on just throwing out his slow and telegraphed heavies and also potentially increase his chip damage from 18% to 25% ... this would make him different from the other Heroes.

Btw. the zoneattack is bad, but still has some use in ganking situations at least.

I guess in my eyes it’s much similar to the deflect argument.

Of course deflecting takes more skill but the argument is that deflects need to stop chains ect. Because if you counter someone’s attack then you should be able to punish.

All I’m saying is if you keep it AFTER a parry as a separate mechanic then you’re opening the same can of worms but on a gigantic scale. If it doesn’t guarantee you any damage or stamina damage on the opponent or it doesn’t work when OOS then it wouldn’t make that big of a stink other than the argument that they can’t open you up without being able to parry, which will still get some heat behind it as well. Yes your way allows the parry to happen IF they don’t counter, but I’m just throwing out this idea to avoid the backlash this mechanic will get. I feel as a whole people would rather be told you can’t parry something rather than risking a parry and feeling like they’re being punished for punishing a bad calculated attack. That’s just my 2 cents and the problem that I see your way flaring up. I love the idea, but most people probably won’t be able to handle it. I also think it shouldn’t work while OOS personally.

Of course parrying is still a core mechanic and should interrupt enemy chains, but it's no art at all to parry attacks from LB, Raider or Goki.
This means, this 3 Heores can't even throw out there very basic attacks without HIGH RISK of being parried to death.
They have to "behave" because toothpick PK could "outforce" even their most charged attacks and even flip the coin hurting them. This is ridiculous!

The problem is not this big, because the exact punish you get from the parry punish can range from:
1) neglecting the own stamina damage and just hurting the opponents stamina
2) till neglecting the own stamina damage and just hurting the opponents stamina plus a follow up free light or damage due to the parry punish itself

The range is pretty definable and would depend on, which other buffs/nerfs come along with this and how the Devs want to define these 3 Heroes in the future.

I proposed on my starting post to disable this option in OOS.

Again ... I am just speaking about the 3 slowest Heroes from the whole roster and NOT about the other 15 Heroes, where parrying even a heavy can be a challenge and indeed should be rewarded.

[kanuzira]

There is no guarenteed light after a shove. If you mean that is hits if you dont dodge you're going to get parried every single time just like at the beginning of the game

[Illyrian_King]

There is no guarenteed light after a shove. If you mean that is hits if you dont dodge you're going to get parried every single time just like at the beginning of the game

No guarateed light only after Block Shove. The timing could be made, that there is no time to parry, but just to block it.

Normal dodge Shove has it still in this concept.

[kanuzira]

No guarateed light only after Block Shove. The timing could be made, that there is no time to parry, but just to block it.

Normal dodge Shove has it still in this concept.

So highlander gets a guarenteed heavy on kick kick/grab and we get a maby light on a neutral shove. That is unfair by any means. With the hyper armor on shove you can get his and get a maby on my attack

[Illyrian_King]

So highlander gets a guarenteed heavy on kick kick/grab and we get a maby light on a neutral shove. That is unfair by any means. With the hyper armor on shove you can get his and get a maby on my attack

The light on neutral shove is and should remain guaranteed.

The devs will most likely remove the whole Block Shove in a LB Rework, and I am talking to just remove the guaranteed light and let us keep the block shove just to interrupt enemy chains.

[Roseguard_Cpt]

The light on any of the LB's shoves is not guaranteed and can be dodged if not deflected by the entire roster, regardless if the shove is from block or neutral. I duel against a buddy of mine who's a rep 23 LB, dodging the shove gets you a free GB and heavy, getting hit by the shove you can still dodge the light followup, leading to the Shove into GB mixup

[Illyrian_King]

The light on any of the LB's shoves is not guaranteed and can be dodged if not deflected by the entire roster, regardless if the shove is from block or neutral. I duel against a buddy of mine who's a rep 23 LB, dodging the shove gets you a free GB and heavy, getting hit by the shove you can still dodge the light followup, leading to the Shove into GB mixup

By guaranteed I mean if the opponent doesn't dodge the shove light.

Even the "free" guardbreak after a dodged shove is often not guaranteed.