Lawbringer, Raider and Shugki Rework | Forums

[kanuzira]

Static Uninterruptible Stance:
- He shouldn't take extra damage when his static HA is down, such as after eating two consecutive hits or after performing a CGB.

Then he shouldnt have Hyper armor at all all the time.

I can agree with most of your points tho.

[bob333e]

Mate I took part in this thread

I really like you idea! Giving the Lawbro an additional stance with new options would be a great enrichment.

Me personally, as a LB main, I was always annoyed by the fact, that he uses the spear-aspect of his halberd only so little.




I must admit, that I am not an expert with him, so my opinion about Goki wouldn't have much weight, but still thanks for leaving it here for somebody who knows better!

In my own Rework proposition about Raider and Goki, I just wrote what they are obviously laking in ... that might be anough to fix them.

Thank you! good to know these suggestions are sounding solid, credit goes to other people as well for helping in refining that post. I'm only a rep4 Shugoki but have caused enough ragequits by now that I understand a bit the hows and whys of his kit hahaha. I hope some actual Shugoki mains can spot that text because their input would be invaluable.

I wish I had ready thoughts for input on LB. I just feel he relies way too much on the block-shove and if that is touched in any way his whole kit will change and would be more of a nerf than an actual rework/buff. Once I get some solid thoughts about LB I'll be sure to throw them on here.

Then he shouldnt have Hyper armor at all all the time.

I can agree with most of your points tho.

Apologies, I made myself misunderstood; when removing his HA he'll eat additional damage added to what damage he can eat when he's out of HA. As BarbeQMichael also pointed out. There's some sort of extra percentile damage calculation that makes him eat added damage when losing the HA. Which is silly, imo. It kind of defeats the purpose of him being a "Heavy", or able to tank, or his current HP pool.

Thanks for your feedback, good to know more people are finding these suggestions reasonable.

[Illyrian_King]

Thank you! good to know these suggestions are sounding solid, credit goes to other people as well for helping in refining that post. I'm only a rep4 Shugoki but have caused enough ragequits by now that I understand a bit the hows and whys of his kit hahaha. I hope some actual Shugoki mains can spot that text because their input would be invaluable.

I wish I had ready thoughts for input on LB. I just feel he relies way too much on the block-shove and if that is touched in any way his whole kit will change and would be more of a nerf than an actual rework/buff. Once I get some solid thoughts about LB I'll be sure to throw them on here.

Lawbringer the Hero I main since launch ... so I can tell, that the whole turlte stuff comes out of fear for being parried. Eventhough I never turtle, I had the one or other outrage, when my Hero himself simply offers nothing to play offensively if the enemy knows how to react on shove and some cheap feints. Pretty ironic regarding his bigasss halberd and considering that he is a freakin giant in comparison to the other Heroes.

What he needs, is to throw out attacks with some kind of "insurance" if he gets parried, what happens very very often.

More unblockables wouldn't change the fact, that it looks hilarious to see the big boy anxiously feinting everything.

He needs that Parry Punish Mechanic and some other slight adjustments, which also takes away the guaranteed light after Block Shove, but not after the faster Shove from neutral.

[Oupyz]

remove his static HA first

and buff him as you see fit

Static HA is very annoying and holding goki back from being buff

so first thing Ubisoft needs to take that static HA Out second redisgn the hero .

[Roseguard_Cpt]

The issue that the game is currently suffering from is unrelenting aggression, the game has gone from predicting your opponent to throwing out as many safe moves as possible as fast as possible, ex. being Shaman, Glad, and recently Conq with his now faster lights. Making it so that LB and Goki can always throw attacks out doesn't break the turtle meta, it shifts it onto everyone else who doesn't have this new tech.
I main Nobushi,I don't have many openers, so having my opponent be more open is good, but the issue is I get punished for playing the game if this mechanic is implemented. If I parry my opponent who has this mechanic I'M the one who gets hit as according to it. I the person who had to parry, take damage. So I can only dodge, bu then the person feints into GB because I can only dodge or eat chip. I become forced to turtle, but can't parry.

[Illyrian_King]

The issue that the game is currently suffering from is unrelenting aggression, the game has gone from predicting your opponent to throwing out as many safe moves as possible as fast as possible, ex. being Shaman, Glad, and recently Conq with his now faster lights. Making it so that LB and Goki can always throw attacks out doesn't break the turtle meta, it shifts it onto everyone else who doesn't have this new tech.
I main Nobushi,I don't have many openers, so having my opponent be more open is good, but the issue is I get punished for playing the game if this mechanic is implemented. If I parry my opponent who has this mechanic I'm the one who gets hit as according to it. I the person who had to parry, take damage. So I can only dodge, bu then the person feints into GB because I can only dodge or eat chip. I become forced to turtle, but can't parry.

Not at all ^^

If these 3 Heroes (especially LB) dare to go more out of their turtle, they just come in joy of a lower parry risk of being parried and even the chance to utilize the parry. But the attacks are still slow and telegraphed asf and not "safe" by any means. The Chip Damage is even with 18% lower then any "safe"attack like shieldbash --> light or shove --> light

--> you can throw out attacks that are faster in most cases and meet your opponent unprotected. So you have dodge attacks, fast light attacks and some CC against him (in case of the Nobushi).
The only difference is that you shouldn't try to parry his slow moves (if the enemy has fast reactions) and that you have more chance to land a hit because the focus is less on "opening" your opponent, what is more fun for both players.

[LEGENDz_31]

As much as I love the idea, I think it would break the game too much and reinforce the turtle/gank meta a bit. I main Nobushi, she has a hard time against LB, opening them up specifically, a long series of faints later I finally manage to open him up and parry him, but now my only allowance to punish is gone however as he whacks me for opening him. I sit back, I wait for some else to show up and help because there's no longer anything I can do to get past a LBs defence.

As much as I really like the OP’s thinking out side the box idea. We do need new mechanics to add to the game and it was a good idea. On the other hand, I more so agree with this gentleman’s post. As Orochi main, a LB for example has no other style then to turtle and I can’t open him up at all. This further cements that play style.

Again I do like your thing thinking op. Keep the ideas coming!

[Roseguard_Cpt]

The main issue I see with this is that parrying is still, even after the changes, is a central and core aspect of the game, the game works much like rock-paper-scissors in my experience (with extra variables: Deflect/Dodge, Hyper Armor, Unblockables, CGB, etc).
Attack beats GB
GB beats Parry attempt (in startup)
Parry attempt beats attack
But now I can't parry without getting punished for it. I can cannot use that third option, the metaphorical circle is broken, so will they slow down these characters even more so that I can interrupt on reaction? Or do I just have to throw unsafe lights at the risk of getting parried in an attempt to interrupt because I have been disallowed from using a core game mechanic?
While I want all the characters to be viable, this mechanic will make these characters safe to throw only heavies, and no one should be safe to throw exclusively heavies imo.

[Illyrian_King]

As much as I really like the OP’s thinking out side the box idea. We do need new mechanics to add to the game and it was a good idea. On the other hand, I more so agree with this gentleman’s post. As Orochi main, a LB for example has no other style then to turtle and I can’t open him up at all. This further cements that play style.

Again I do like your thing thinking op. Keep the ideas coming!

Thanks

The main issue I see with this is that parrying is still, even after the changes, is a central and core aspect of the game, the game works much like rock-paper-scissors in my experience (with extra variables: Deflect/Dodge, Hyper Armor, Unblockables, CGB, etc).
Attack beats GB
GB beats Parry attempt (in startup)
Parry attempt beats attack
But now I can't parry without getting punished for it. I can cannot use that third option, the metaphorical circle is broken, so will they slow down these characters even more so that I can interrupt on reaction? Or do I just have to throw unsafe lights at the risk of getting parried in an attempt to interrupt because I have been disallowed from using a core game mechanic?
While I want all the characters to be viable, this mechanic will make these characters safe to throw only heavies, and no one should be safe to throw exclusively heavies imo.

Dude, which metaphorical circle?
Do you think, real combat works 100% like a rock-paper-scissor system?
Me personally, I train Martial Arts for years now and I am sure, that this is no difference with medieval weapons.
I see a way bigger problem in it, to watch 100kg of metall with a body builder wrapped in it, being parried by a PK with sowrd and dagger or a Shinobi with sickles. This is unrealstic to the utt-most.
The rock paper thing is just an approximation, to help making a good fighting game, but it's not unfailable.
I don't want to see a fight, where 9/10 attacks get canceled and people try to guardbreak each other 5 times in a raw.

And remember, it is not "safe" ... just the parry can be countered if the player reacts fast enough, which wouldn't be easy at all. There would be a lot of calculation.

Assassins have a core mechanic (Deflect), which other Heroes don't, so why shouldn't ultra heavies also have their "precious"

Especially heavy, two-handed weapons are made to break through the enemies defense and armour, while ingame they have the lowest impact imaginable.

You critisize the idea, but you offer no solution. Adjusting some numbers, won't do the job. Adding more unblockables and CC would outrage the Community. Leaving him the way he is, is also hated by the Community. What do you propose then?

Here only a whole new mechanic can help out. Something that other Heroes (beside Raider and Goki) don't have, or do you want all the Heroes to have 400ms lights, unblockables, CC and hyperarmour?.

I am a Lawbringer main, since launch and I know his flaws and why people turtle with him. I really know what I am talking about and why I am proposing exactly this.

Edit: Also if you have 3 Heroes out of 18, who can do that, it won't "crack" or "eliminate" the core mechanic of parrying by any means.

[Melee_Expert]

Greetings!

This is an idea I was shaping in my head quiet for a while now and I guess it’s finally ready to post it.


Introduction in a new mechanic:

The main problem is, that these 3 classes share the same basic problem: They look massive and powerful, but they have to literally hide behind endless feint games, just fearing to get parried, like their Assassin "counterparts", instead of actually relying on their heavy weapons and go for it.
It looks strange and unauthentic, to see the 3 most heavy weapon wielding Heroes on the field, canceling their most powerful (even unblockable) strikes, because it could be stopped by the toothpick sword&dagger of a PK for example ;b

Now the solution I am talking about, is to enhence their kits with the ability to punish the enemy for parrying them, by pressing a certain button (like guardbreak) in the moment of being parried.
Like Assassins have a deflect mechanic, these 3 „Ultra Heavies“ need their proper mechanic too.

In the case of the Lawbringer: It would be authentic, if one end of his polearm is thrown back by the parry, to use the acceleration of the other end and make a swift strike towards the enemy’s head or to simply bash with his heavily armoured body into the opponent. This could cause stamina damage or even bring him to fall if OOS.

These 3 Heroes are slow and telegraphed, and exactly that can be their advantage, with this little addition. There would be no need of „reshaping“ their attacks or to give them lighting fast attacks in a full Rework.
The attack is parried --> punish if properly reacted
The attack is NOT parried --> eat the chip damage
The only way to get out completely untouched is to dodge, which is again dangerous for guardbreak. Here you have a way of damaging the opponent without spaming Unblockables or CC.


Hero Reworks:

One could even think off raising their Chip Damage up to 25%, but this is a thing could be decided after gathering data of how the Mechanic impacts the fight.

Lawbringer:
*Add Parry Punish Mechanic
*Remove guaranted light after light Block Shove
*Make Shove from neutral 100ms faster and keep guaranted light if not dodged
*Give his Zone Attack hyperarmour

Raider:
*Add Parry Punish Mechanic
*Reduce stamina damage on Stampede Charge

Shugo:
*Add Parry Punish Mechanic
*Slightly reduce stamina damage on the Headbutt


Limitings:

*In order to make ganking not a bigger problem, the Parry Punish Mechanic should just work, if both players (the "parrier" and the "parried one") are locked on into one another.
*When Revenge is triggered, the Parry Punish wouldn't work against that player.
*When the "parrier" has a follow up for his parry in his kit and the "parried one" has the Parry Punish Mechanic --> faster one gets the advantage


Please don’t try to fix all Heroes with the existing tools (like 400ms lights, soft-feints, unblockables or CC), because it won’t work out well. The result would just be that it will be hard to tell one Hero apart from another, because everybody has the same tools in just different animations.
And I guess, nobody would like even more unblockable spam or light spam with much feinting.
These 3 classes don't need new unblockables or stuff like that.
Just let them use what they already have properly

Assassins can allow to play aggressively due to their speed and even get their Chip Damage done with fast heavy attacks, but LB, Raider and Goki can’t because it's too risky. The Parry Nerf has reduced the consequences of getting parried, but not changed the risk itself of being parried with slow Heroes. Let the beast be a beast, instead of forcing it to behave like a slow Assassin.

Pls Ubi unchain these 3 Heroes.

This is really something creative!

I think it would be a good addtion.