The Great balance pass Part 1. | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

With Conq I agree with the zone change, but I feel like the Conq should be able to manually full-guard and zone, as the stamina cost is rather high. Also, used to play Conq a lot before the rework, Full-Guard light feints would be nice

Oh yeah i'm not wanting that option removed. I just don't think he should be able to get full block just from activating zone. Makes him safe from basically everything sans being parried.

Personally I do not like these changes by the concept they are inserted (armor, unblocakbles, spam), but it is undeniable that it is the concept that the developers decided to follow to fight de def meta.

This thread ws about balance, so with regard to the balance I can see these changes coming to effect and be ok with it.

I still prefer a slower pace minded games at the gameplay though.

armor, unblockables, faster attacks are at their core not bad things to have. If used correctly they wouldn't feel intrusive.
The ideas presented were to mostly keep the same gameplay the heros already have. But make it more rounded so their kit actually works as designed instead of as is right now where many options don't work.

[Knight_Raime]

Thank you for taking the time to share your balance ideas with us all here, Knight_Raime. I will be sure to get this to the team so they can see the ideas and feedback being discussed in here by all of you.

Also, thank you so much for the wonderful formatting, Knight_Raime. It made for much an easier read.

I appreciate it. I'll be posting another thread within a week or 2 that will have these changes and any revisions i've made plus the rest of the cast that I didn't include here.
i'll also have a second post in the main thread there (if the opening post is too long) giving a brief explanation on why I chose the suggestions I made.

[Alustar.exe]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought shaman could flow into a wildcat's rage from a whiffed predators mercy? I know I used to do it unless they patched that?

[Charmzzz]

I like alot of your suggestions but: why increase Dodge recovery on PK and decrease it on LB so they both have 600ms? Imo Assassins should keep (or get) the best Dodge recoveries in the game because they lack the static guard. Take away 10 HP from Assassins to give the tanks a more "tanky" feeling, but don't make the tanks as nimble as the Assassins should be. Please.

[LEGENDz_31]

I know we haven’t seen eye to eye when it comes to orochi but I have to say that I really like your ideas here for him. This opens a lot more options with his kit without breaking the feel of the character. Just giving credit when credit is due.

[Knight_Raime]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought shaman could flow into a wildcat's rage from a whiffed predators mercy? I know I used to do it unless they patched that?

Unsure. Though my wording is bad. I want the ONLY option for her after a whiff follow up (attack wise) to be rage. currently if you whiff you can go for another bite. I think that should go.

I like alot of your suggestions but: why increase Dodge recovery on PK and decrease it on LB so they both have 600ms? Imo Assassins should keep (or get) the best Dodge recoveries in the game because they lack the static guard. Take away 10 HP from Assassins to give the tanks a more "tanky" feeling, but don't make the tanks as nimble as the Assassins should be. Please.

Mainly because 500ms dodges are redic and counter most mix ups in the game. I originally wanted assassins back dodge distance and recoveries worse while OOS. But i'm not sure that would be a deterint enough. I will admit though this is a rough ish draft. I'll likely make some slight adjustments in my next thread when I include the rest of the cast.

I know we haven’t seen eye to eye when it comes to orochi but I have to say that I really like your ideas here for him. This opens a lot more options with his kit without breaking the feel of the character. Just giving credit when credit is due.

Appreciate it!

[Jiblet2017]

Thanks for taking the time to suggest these changes Raime. They look pretty well thought out. I'll just comment in the character I have most experience with - PK.

The main complaint against her is that she has speed. However, this is often misinterpreted as "she has fast attacks."

While her zone and lights are certainly quick, her offense is not what makes her top tier. Her fast recoveries (dodge and attack) allow her to be one of the best turtles in the game. If a PK plays offensively, she can be shut down rather easily (assuming you can parry a 500ms light and guard for zone).

It seems your suggestions try to push a PK into playing more aggressively by increasing her dodge recoveries (600ms should be the fastest) and increasing her bleed effectiveness. I personally think this is a great trajectory for the character that will make her less frustrating to play against while fitting her characters archetype.

My only additional suggestion would be to allow her heavy soft feint (from neutral or a chain) flow into an omnidirectional bleed. As of now, it only comes out from the same direction as her heavy and at the exact same parry timing (so if you would have parried the heavy, you will parry the bleed light). This would further promote offensive play and make turtling less attractive by comparison.

Lastly, as to charmz point - I also think assassins should have a faster dodge recovery than heavies. At the same time I think 700ms is a relatively slow dodge for characters like LB. It's a tough point between balancing classes' feel and individual kits which I'm not sure how to handle. Part of me wishes we could break into 633/666 ms to give greater timing variety.

Thanks again!

[Knight_Raime]

Thanks for taking the time to suggest these changes Raime. They look pretty well thought out. I'll just comment in the character I have most experience with - PK.

The main complaint against her is that she has speed. However, this is often misinterpreted as "she has fast attacks."

While her zone and lights are certainly quick, her offense is not what makes her top tier. Her fast recoveries (dodge and attack) allow her to be one of the best turtles in the game. If a PK plays offensively, she can be shut down rather easily (assuming you can parry a 500ms light and guard for zone).

It seems your suggestions try to push a PK into playing more aggressively by increasing her dodge recoveries (600ms should be the fastest) and increasing her bleed effectiveness. I personally think this is a great trajectory for the character that will make her less frustrating to play against while fitting her characters archetype.

My only additional suggestion would be to allow her heavy soft feint (from neutral or a chain) flow into an omnidirectional bleed. As of now, it only comes out from the same direction as her heavy and at the exact same parry timing (so if you would have parried the heavy, you will parry the bleed light). This would further promote offensive play and make turtling less attractive by comparison.

Lastly, as to charmz point - I also think assassins should have a faster dodge recovery than heavies. At the same time I think 700ms is a relatively slow dodge for characters like LB. It's a tough point between balancing classes' feel and individual kits which I'm not sure how to handle. Part of me wishes we could break into 633/666 ms to give greater timing variety.

Thanks again!

I had originally considered a bleed cancel in any direction. But. Thinking more on it I don't see the point of it. Bleed cancel into any direction on shaman makes sense because bleed opens a move for her. Which is a lot. But with pk it seems like the bleed cancel was designed as a "guess game" between soft feinting into GB or soft feinting into bleed cancel when an opponent is trying to be offensive.You could attempt to soft into GB but if the opponent knows it's coming he'll just wait and GB. Alternatively it is a hard counter to raw bashes or bash based mix ups. Which is why I instead suggested buffing the damage of the bleed poke itself to maybe encourage it's use over relying on dodge attacks. (frankly this game relies too hard on dodging for dealing with mix ups.)

I agree that assassins should be faster/slippier than normal heros. These were just rough drafts. I'll have better wording and some minor tweaks once I make my second thread with the rest of the rebalances.