State of Balance Season 4 | Forums

[Knight_Raime]

I always knew PK and Shaman were top tier, I was just surprised at who was number 1 and 2. I thought it was flipped but it doesn't really matter. Both classes are just cancer.

Nah m8. Shaman is A tier in duels. Her bite is harder to get access to.
it's pretty easy to shut out her unblockable mix up.
Bleed is hard to confirm.
and raw pounces/wildcats rages are pretty easy to defend against.

She's an absolute monster to people with poor reaction or easily get overhwhelmed. But a cautious and calm opponent picks her appart really easily.

[CandleInTheDark]

Nah m8. Shaman is A tier in duels. Her bite is harder to get access to.
it's pretty easy to shut out her unblockable mix up.
Bleed is hard to confirm.
and raw pounces/wildcats rages are pretty easy to defend against.

She's an absolute monster to people with poor reaction or easily get overhwhelmed. But a cautious and calm opponent picks her appart really easily.

I recall taking my zero rep (pre rework) kensei into duels and it was so easy just to use the dodge sweeps and 100-0 her without taking a hit, causing a rage quit. Yes Shaman is good, but people need to have a base level of skill in the game mechanics to use her.

[Knight_Raime]

I recall taking my zero rep (pre rework) kensei into duels and it was so easy just to use the dodge sweeps and 100-0 her without taking a hit, causing a rage quit. Yes Shaman is good, but people need to have a base level of skill in the game mechanics to use her.

Yeah you need to be pretty good at the game to get anything decent from her. But people are going to continue to think she's a god because "muh mix ups."
even though kensei's mix ups are also almost as bad as hers.

Sorry. Don't mean to sound dismissive. Been having frustrating arguments about centurion being perfectly fine (he is) at the moment but so many people are calling him trash because his mix ups don't net anything easily. even though lights and heavies from him are basically safe and his kick/delayed kick works often enough for pressure on occasion.

[PDXGorechild]

Finally, some insight! Excellent post by the fight team. So pleased to have some solid data on balance.

TL;DR How is Lawbringer a top 3 duelist? He's slow, has no openers worth mentioning, no hyper armor on chains, allowing him to get interrupted all the time, has poor dodge recoveries, lukewarm damage and is a gimmick character whose incredibly sink or swim. You are either a god or a grunt.

The data is before your very eyes. Evidently it's upset you, but you can't deny facts.. What more do you want? He was obviously top tier in 4v4 and probably still is. His ability to win in duels stems from, as the notes from the fight team say, turtling to the max and winning by attrition. He's undeniably good at this. I'm not saying he's fun to play as or against, actually rather frustrating in most situations. Doesn't surprise me at all that my main has a 38% win rate against him.

Most of the list doesn't surprise me. Valkyrie seems to perform better than i'd have predicted, and Warden not quite as well. Orochi is way lower than I thought, guess i'll have to eat my hat on some of the comments I've made in his defence.

And Gladiator, wtf!? Never had trouble against him personally, but I’d have thought he’d be in the top 5 at least based on how he seems to perform against most classes. Perhaps the fluidity and viability of his kit makes him seem stronger than he is compared to some others. In truth he’s one of the best designed classes imo, backed up by this data.

Poor Highlander. I knew his situation wasn’t good pre-buff but it’s actually quite staggering to see his numbers. The gap between him and the second lowest is considerable. I feel they went the right way about buffing him though, he has a good kit, just needed to be the heavy hitter he was supposed to be. Will be interesting to see how he progresses.

Interesting points –

Conqueror 25% win rate against PK. Ouch. He did enjoy a 74% win rate against Highlander though.

Warden vs Shaman, didn’t think it was that hard for him.

Berserker was a bit higher than I expected him to be in 1v1. I predict his rates in 4v4 will go up considerably and his 1v1 viability won't change much at higher level play. That's from my own experience.

Thanks for Candle for bringing this to the forum.

[EvoX.]

Good to see them taking feedback from top players. Imagine what the game would be like if they listened to every newbie that complains Warden and Valkyrie need a nerf.

[CandleInTheDark]

Good to see them taking feedback from top players. Imagine what the game would be like if they listened to every newbie that complains Warden and Valkyrie need a nerf.

Obviously it isn't just data, but they said a while ago, top 2% or so is their balance data, anything lower is how fun is the character to use.

[bob333e]

Obviously it isn't just data, but they said a while ago, top 2% or so is their balance data, anything lower is how fun is the character to use.

Honestly it's better that way. With how this forum gets drowned with complaints and rants and random crynerfs (and I don't even want to imagine how it is like on Reddit), I'm happy they don't take the data from the average casual crynerfer.

I wonder, do they find people who are mains at every hero? or do those top 2% use all heroes and have no singular mains? for example, a guy in the top 2% might be god-tier with PK but he's normal with LB, and a random unknown user who's been a LB main since launch can provide much better data than the guy sitting in the top 2%, concerning LB. I don't know how they pull out this data based on combat feedback, but this is still much better than taking in the complaints from the masses. It paints a clearer picture.

I had a knack Warden is mid-level nearly everywhere. It feels just about right. He's mid-level in almost everything. The thing about Warden is, you've got to know your opponent if you want to counter them. Warden is a counter-attacker, and is punished twice as much if he makes mistakes. Still, can't help but absolutely love this hero. Been my main since I started the game, and not planning to switch mains anytime soon.

[Arekonator]

I am really surprised.
If lawbringer is top tier duelist, how come i have never seen LB win any competetive 1v1 tournament (i am not saying there werent any, just that i never seen one). Genuinely curious how to explain disparity between competetive tierlists and this.
My personal take is that people in public matches simply cant be arsed to roll away after every block and he just bores them to death so they play along with the shove mixup game. People just dont bother to play vs him "properly" because how god damn boring it is.
Also, 37% WR vs pre-rework conqueror ( which was widely considered to be trash) showcases his issues: if he cant punish enemy attacks, he is screwed because he lacks any option to initiate offense on his own.
Regarding 4v4, i always knew he is up there.

Disclaimer: Yes i am LB main. Yes, i am questioning the data because it doesnt align with my personal experience. Is there something that the data doesnt take into account? If anyone can make sense out of this, i am very curious.

[CandleInTheDark]

I am really surprised.
If lawbringer is top tier duelist, how come i have never seen LB win any competetive 1v1 tournament (i am not saying there werent any, just that i never seen one). Genuinely curious how to explain disparity between competetive tierlists and this.
My personal take is that people in public matches simply cant be arsed to roll away after every block and he just bores them to death so they play along with the shove mixup game. People just dont bother to play vs him "properly" because how god damn boring it is.
Also, 37% WR vs pre-rework conqueror ( which was widely considered to be trash) showcases his issues: if he cant punish enemy attacks, he is screwed because he lacks any option to initiate offense on his own.
Regarding 4v4, i always knew he is up there.

Disclaimer: Yes i am LB main. Yes, i am questioning the data because it doesnt align with my personal experience. Is there something that the data doesnt take into account? If anyone can make sense out of this, i am very curious.

Bearing in mind that this is the top 2% in duel, I can't say I am surprised. Remember that the defensive meta was very much a thing and consider what the devs said in the blog post, that shove on block and his hp pool means he can grind out matches which as we saw in 1v1 live stream tournaments is the general thing at that level, then consider his parry rewards.

Now Lawbringer is supposed to be a turtle, he is a counter attacker, even the assassin counter attackers do better by turtling (outside peacekeeper) so in that skill bracket he is a very solid choice and will continue to be.

Bear in mind also that the devs outright said they don't think he is too strong and that while they are looking at shove on block, their preferred method currently outside of a few things they directly stated is buffs for lower performing classes.

[MumfordDaHound]

Well these stats let me know why when I play orochi things seem harder then when I play my LB. Also, explains why when playing as orochi vs Amarusha I've had issues, almost 70% win rate for amu. Although lately it seems to have become better.
Nice to see stats like this and kinda puts to rest which characters are fine and which need help. Pk obviously needs some toning down, but maybe the parry change stuff will do some adjusting to the list.