"Just dodge" | Forums

[Kahuf1]

Guys, what about idea to make some "safest" openers high stamina cost? Or all openers will just cost like 1,5x more stamina then before? Opener should be to open enemy to do some react or move, not to spam as hell. Shieldbash of warden is good opener (maybe hard to guess cause softfeint into GB), the same shieldbash from Conqueror, but if it takes more stamina, here is more posibilities and more chances.

Ur opinions?

[WastedPunk]

Even if you are in gb range, you have to react in under 100ms. That is superhuman reaction speed. I am not able to do it, and >99% of the population can't.

Just because you can't doesn't mean no one else can.
Charmzz over here can react to anything! Nothing is OP in this game and if you say otherwise it's because YOU suck.

[Charmzzz]

Just because you can't doesn't mean no one else can.
Charmzz over here can react to anything! Nothing is OP in this game and if you say otherwise it's because YOU suck.

Holy, you are biased... As I, and several others here, said: Conq - HL is an unfavourable matchup for HL. But that does not make Conq Shieldbash "OP". Every Character with a dodge-attack can easily punish it. Every Character with low dodge recovery times can punish it. HL should use his range and go offensive asap for a kick-cabertoss mixup when facing a Conq.

I cannot react to anything. I currently have problems with Zerker feint-games and Shaman Zone / unblockable mixups. But that does not make those moves or chains "OP". I just didn't learn what to do properly.

Stop being so aggressive please. I never said that someone "su*ks", just that maybe he has to learn a different behavior in certain situations. Maybe he is just too slow. But all of this does not make a move "OP".

Inb4 they nerf Conq SB and you coming to forums "in triumph" - and Conq being trash again. ^^

[Charmzzz]

True, there are certainly people with such reflexes, they are just incredibly rare. Googling around reaction times you can see there is a handful of persons who can react in 100ms, while the median is somewhere between 250-300ms. Adding in ping and input lag as for this game would mean median player is capable of reacting to 400-500ms moves.

You don't have to react in 100ms. You can just throw out a GB from time to time if you face a SB spamming Conq. Or a light if he comes near. I do this all the time vs Conqs because they all spam SB atm. I play aggresive on them because the only thing they can do as an opener is the dodge into SB. My lights and occasional GB's will make it hard for any Conq to get his SB going. Sometimes I fail, sure, but being able to prevent someone from using an "OP" move negates it as being "OP".

[Charmzzz]

Anyone can get lucky with random guardbreaks or attacks, but this was not the point. This case was about if you can punish certain moves by reaction, and it turns out it is possible if you can react in 100ms.

Which is true for the GB on reaction. Other Characters than HL have punish tools (e.g. Hyperarmor, 400/500ms attacks, dodge-attacks, Riptide Strike, not sure about Hidden Stance). Most of the roster CAN punish Conq SB attempts. HL cannot. "OP"!!!

[Charmzzz]

I am not saying it is op, please stay on topic. You said yourself, that not every character should be able to counter fast melees. I think no character should have safe moves which guarantee damage without risk. And it turns out characters without dodgeattacks or low dodge recoveries cannot counter them unless the player has 100ms reaction time.

Even the OP does not stay on topic, why should I?

You forgot fast attacks in your list, sooo it all comes down to HL I think. He is the only one who cannot punish Conq SB regularly. Buff HL dodge recoveries and we are good?

[Charmzzz]

With 500ms light attack you still need 100ms reaction time because the bash 500+100. 400ms attack is nice but not many have them. HL's dodge recoveries could use buffing that I agree, and maybe even one 500ms attack from top like lawdaddy.

Nope, no 500ms attack for HL as he can countercrush on all directions already. That would make his defensive stance too good and nobody would go offensive stance anymore... Buff dodge recovery so he gets a light or gb on a dodged SB.

[Charmzzz]

I have kind of mixed feelings of the countercrush, it is a nice when you can use it but because of 200ms delay you can use it mostly on heavies, and that is my favourite way of killing highlanders because you can easily parry the 600ms light after your heavy feint. But I guess this is another topic

200ms delay? 200ms timeframe for the HL to initiate it! Iirc. Same for Warden, you have a 200ms window on your top light to get the crushing counter. No delay.

[Knight_Raime]

You would need to be withing gb distance to do that, and if I remember right both those moves start 100ms into the dodge which is impossible time to react for vast majority if not all.

E:Checked, unless changed in some recent patches both headbutt and shieldbash are 500ms moves which start 100ms into the dodge making it total of 600ms move. So you would need reaction time of lower than 100ms (usually ping alone is close to this) to guardbreak them. I've yet to see a player with such reflexes.

I'm not currently aware of warlords headbutt timing. But I know it's slower than conqs.
And you're seeing this a bit wrong. in both conq and warlords case you're not reacting to the move. You're reacting to the dodge.
Also conq wise the time it takes from his bash to start and finish if you let it rip as early as possible is 300-400ms.

Just because an attack starts that soon doesn't make the attack that fast.
It's the same thing with shaman's side dodge attack. She can start it as early as 200ms. But the attack itself doesn't start and complete in that time.
And you're reacting to her dodge. Not the attack itself.

[Knight_Raime]

Yes, we wanted to react to the dodge with guardbreak, as that can be grabbed but the actual move not. The dodge turns into bash/headbutt 100ms after the start of the dodge, so that is the window when it would be possible to be guardbroken with impressive luck. Warlord headbutt and conq bash are both 500ms moves, which when you add the dodge startup of 100ms adds to 600ms.

If you're attempting to GB either a warlord headbutt or a conq bash before it starts i'm like 90% sure only raider would be capable of that since he can GB mid dodge.
every other time someone usually refers to GBing it is dodging the move itself and then landing a GB.