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After i saw a gameplay of new conqu, and serker and kensei, i have to say really?
I mean how should this work for next weeks? u HIGH BUFF conqu and poor Shugoki still there with light and heavy opener?
And why so many unblockables?? i mean do you guys acutally play this game ? the only modes r 1v1 and 4v4 dominion. for 1v1 everything should work more or less. But dominions!!!
at begin of for honor , 4v4 was really fun and challenging as sametime . u had always a chance when u had to fight 1v3 or 1v2. After DLCs and tons of unblockables , really not ( i play on PC and the lvl of game i join is HIGH and people know how it works , dont begin with blabla rep 1 PS4 gameplay thx )
U cant parry everyattack when 3 attacking you with unblockables, i mean u 2v1 with a gladiator and centurio , gg block dat shieldbashes and kicks , and now u going to the wrong direction to make the game better ( my oppinion ). too many unblockables make dominion more boring becaus u never will have a chance to stay in 1v2 or 1v3 which r pretty much most TIME.
serker dont need a unblockable top heavy finisher, In 1v1 what the hell is that supposed to help ?? and in dominions one more attack u cant block in gang fights
and conqu SAME , an unblockable uppercut after a block ? whaat ? how do you fight 2 conqu same time? unblockables and shield bashes ? All heroes will get their buffs, yes, but for NOW we r only getting these. what do you wanna do with raider vs that turtle conqu with bash and unblockables and garantee hits? feint heavy to head? hahahahaha.
The funny part : u see twice as many players play with kensei and conqu these days. I mean its just good when dev. want to make the game better , but this is in my oppinion the wrong way !
WE WILL JUST SEE , what people will say when season v is out !
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I like this step with more unblockables, BUT with these reworks some classes that are build on unblockables like Lawbringer or Shugoki lose much of their value on the battlefield. To help them up, they would need even more unblockables now, to keep their role as "heavies" even in future.
The unblockables are really needed to open up turtles.
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Alternatively, I'd much, much rather have had the Parry changes implemented long before the reworks hit, and see their effect on turtles. We just need to find a way to make attacking slightly more rewarding than eternal turtling.The unblockables are really needed to open up turtles.
It's harder to find a good solution to the defensive meta by playing around with the core mechanics, but "moar unblockables" seem like the easy, but messy way out for the developers.
If all the heroes keep getting more moves, or additional attack properties in their existing ones, the combat is just going to keep escalating to the point of being unplayable.
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Yes, unblockables to open up turtles, so you go there and add more and more to make a conqu turtle more turtle. Did you guys acutally see the gameplay of him ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMlYIX1wIIs&t=333s
I have nothing to add, but i just see it coming , people get bored by tons of conquerors, It already begans, u see at least 2 conquerors in every match ! SAD !
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It wouldn't change much. It would make turtling up for parries less rewarding. that's really it. It still wouldn't stop people from doing it. Which in the end would just make matches stall out to be much longer. and/or we'd see a boost to heros that could just ignore the turtle meta. Which was exactly how season 1 went down. The heros who could ignore the defensive play out right were top tier. and everyone else was considered bad because of it.Originally Posted by Tundra 793 Go to original post
Reworks had to come. and they would include faster attacks and unblockables. Both inherently are not bad things. And can be done in a good way. We've seen (in my opinion) examples of both fast attacks and unblockables being added in good. and being added in poorly.
PK in my opinion is a bad way of fast attack implimentation. And that's because her neutral lights and her zone cancel from neutral. Aramusha in my opinion is fast attacks done well. You have to actually get in on someone in order for them to get fast. And more on top of that you have to mix things up constantly or you'll get punished. So you can't spam your way to victory with him.
Centurion is an example of poor implimentation of unblockables. Kick was amazing. then useless. Jab is both amazing and useless (also ignores a standard rule of combat too.) Then I believe gladiator is a great example of unblockables added in. he's got a lot of unblockable bashes. But none sans his zone confirms any damage. All of his unblockables sans his zone open up/force a reaction on his opponent. but they don't give free damage. and are pretty telegraphed.
So. With how season 5's reworks goes I would say by what i've outlined above kensei is fine. his unblockable isn't from neutral. it has a noticable tell of the now slower heavy. On top of that it's got garbage reach. and is easily punished with a dodge attack/bash. It's going to suck for heros with bad dodges. (of which there is only like what. 4?) but that's more of an issue with those kits. The only meeeeeh thing about it is that it guarantees a light.
Conq got 3? new unblockables. one is 800ms that can be back dodged on reaction by basically anyone. it merely serves to punish side bashes/attacks. His unblockable flail counter from blocking with full block. Which is highly punishable since it's got a longer start up now and you can't dodge out of it or CGB it. Your only defense is a zone. which can be reacted to and parried pretty easily. And his charged attack now is unblockable. not really new but i'll count it. Considering it has to be charged it's got a big tell. So it's not really something that can be spammed or abused. His lights are now 500ms sure. but really majority of the heros in the game even OG roster has a 500ms attack. So I think it's more than fair.
I don't really want to comment on zerker as I know most people will disagree with me here on the 400ms attacks. But I will say at least as far as the unblockables go the 2 she got are basically useless. The one at the end of her side heavy triple is good for a mix up if you've gotten someone on the ground OOS. but that's it. I would say that while I personally don't have an issue with her new fast attacks I can concede and say I think they did a poor job with her rework. seems like the easiest/most lazy just from reading over and watching gameplay.
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Goki was far better off than zerk, kensei, and conq. at least as far as dueling goes. Can't comment on 4v4.Originally Posted by M1N1-Oro Go to original postAfter i saw a gameplay of new conqu, and serker and kensei, i have to say really?
I mean how should this work for next weeks? u HIGH BUFF conqu and poor Shugoki still there with light and heavy opener?
And why so many unblockables?? i mean do you guys acutally play this game ? the only modes r 1v1 and 4v4 dominion. for 1v1 everything should work more or less. But dominions!!!
at begin of for honor , 4v4 was really fun and challenging as sametime . u had always a chance when u had to fight 1v3 or 1v2. After DLCs and tons of unblockables , really not ( i play on PC and the lvl of game i join is HIGH and people know how it works , dont begin with blabla rep 1 PS4 gameplay thx )
U cant parry everyattack when 3 attacking you with unblockables, i mean u 2v1 with a gladiator and centurio , gg block dat shieldbashes and kicks , and now u going to the wrong direction to make the game better ( my oppinion ). too many unblockables make dominion more boring becaus u never will have a chance to stay in 1v2 or 1v3 which r pretty much most TIME.
serker dont need a unblockable top heavy finisher, In 1v1 what the hell is that supposed to help ?? and in dominions one more attack u cant block in gang fights
and conqu SAME , an unblockable uppercut after a block ? whaat ? how do you fight 2 conqu same time? unblockables and shield bashes ? All heroes will get their buffs, yes, but for NOW we r only getting these. what do you wanna do with raider vs that turtle conqu with bash and unblockables and garantee hits? feint heavy to head? hahahahaha.
The funny part : u see twice as many players play with kensei and conqu these days. I mean its just good when dev. want to make the game better , but this is in my oppinion the wrong way !
WE WILL JUST SEE , what people will say when season v is out !
Uh. if you parry one attack all other incoming attacks are parried within a pretty generous window.
And i'll have to disagree about launch 4v4 being fair/fun. I remember being headbutt to death by teams of stacked warlords. There was absolutely unblockable spam in launch. most complaints of 4v4 back then were spam of unblockables/safe moves. granted less heros had it. But it was still there.
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I don't think you can state that as an absolute. Across all game modes, and all platforms, I believe the parry changes should have had a chance to see how they combat the defensive meta. Now, we're getting both the changes and the reworks in one big bundle. It's going to muddle the impact on our collective gameplay as we didn't get the chance to experience these massive changes seperately.It wouldn't change much.
Again, I don't believe this was the only way forward, and if the parry changes had been implemented sooner, we could have had an outlook on the game that could have paved the way for another solution.Reworks had to come. and they would include faster attacks and unblockables.
If we'd gotten the changes many months ago, we could have used those as a starting point for further refining the core mechanics. It's the longer, harder road to take, but I much prefer it to simply buffing all the heroes. If this direction was taken, the developers might have been in a situation where they didn't need to rework 12 heroes, but instead only 6, or maybe even just keep refining the underlying game mechanics and need no reworks at all.
I disagree about the Aramusha. On console, his attacks are stupid fast. And once they start feinting, the damage they can put out and speed at which they deliver it, kills a lot of players. It's also damn near insurmountable to deal with in 4v4 modes, like most DLC heroes movesets are.PK in my opinion is a bad way of fast attack implimentation. And that's because her neutral lights and her zone cancel from neutral. Aramusha in my opinion is fast attacks done well. You have to actually get in on someone in order for them to get fast. And more on top of that you have to mix things up constantly or you'll get punished. So you can't spam your way to victory with him.
This is what many of us have argued for months; The newer heroes all focus on upping attack speed and unblockables to an unhealthy, even unsustainable degree.
Half-agree. Centurion to me, was critically flawed from conception. He's built around gimmicky unblockable, stamina draining combos, which he can also deliver at a very rapid and oddly sustainable pace. He shouldn't have cleared internal testing anywhere near the state he was in at launch.Centurion is an example of poor implimentation of unblockables. Kick was amazing. then useless. Jab is both amazing and useless (also ignores a standard rule of combat too.) Then I believe gladiator is a great example of unblockables added in. he's got a lot of unblockable bashes. But none sans his zone confirms any damage. All of his unblockables sans his zone open up/force a reaction on his opponent. but they don't give free damage. and are pretty telegraphed.
Gladiator is another highlight of the over-buffing of DLC heroes. Too many moves. His toe-stab is, like i mentioned before, a superfluous move. It can reset combat much like the Shugoki's headbutt, but much faster, and much more frequently. It's one of numerous perfectly viable attacks the Glad can already feint into. And again, the amount of unblockables makes him frustrating in 4v4 modes.
Like I've stated before; I'll withhold final judgement on the reworks until they actually launch. But many of the concerns about them, and the nature of the DLC heroes, remain entirely valid, and worthy of discussion.So. With how season 5's reworks goes I would say by what i've outlined above kensei is fine. his unblockable isn't from neutral. it has a noticable tell of the now slower heavy. On top of that it's got garbage reach. and is easily punished with a dodge attack/bash. It's going to suck for heros with bad dodges. (of which there is only like what. 4?) but that's more of an issue with those kits. The only meeeeeh thing about it is that it guarantees a light.
I think you state some parts of the gameplay far too matter-of-factly. You've stated before that you almost exclusively play Duels, which is fine, but you have to take into account the effect these reworks have on the most popular game modes; 4v4.Conq got 3? new unblockables. one is 800ms that can be back dodged on reaction by basically anyone. it merely serves to punish side bashes/attacks. His unblockable flail counter from blocking with full block. Which is highly punishable since it's got a longer start up now and you can't dodge out of it or CGB it. Your only defense is a zone. which can be reacted to and parried pretty easily.
Almost all the heroes are perfectly fine in Duels, there's limited amount of outside input to exacerbate underlying issues when it's only you and 1 opponent. The parry changes, were they alone, might have made Duels far more enjoyable in it's mission to combat the defensive meta, but they're now compounded with reworks as well. Duels might still be perfectly fine, even better with these changes, but 4v4, and even 2v2s risk eventually buckling under the weight of ever increasing attacks with special properties.
While I respect your opinions, and welcome the technical knowledge you bring to discussions, I would love it if you could start to branch out, and play, or at least consider the larger impact of these changes, and why they worry so many of us, in Dominion, Tribute and Skirmish/Elimination.
We're all hoping these changes will "fix" the game in some way or another, but our concerns are legitimate.
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@Tundra
I could have actually worded that better sure. As factually the parry changes are changing a lot. I more or less meant to state that I don't believe them alone would significantly change the flow of combat to along the lines of what i'd like to see. The argument that less punishing punishes from parries would likely see an increase of people attacking more. Which, in a way, is true. But and i'm really sorry i'm struggling to word here It wouldn't really improve combat flow to me. What would increase that in my eyes is better more well rounded kits. where things happen in sequence/strings rather than simple one offs that may or may not give damage.
I truly honestly fail to see how you could make say conq's lights better without speeding them up. Lights by design (from how I understand the game) are meant to be quick and a way to do minimal health damage at the least. That way should your opponent be good and is able to block/parry most things you'd have at least a semi reliable option to make some progress against your opponent. But due to how easy it is for even an average player to react and block most things in the game conq's lights are not only not a very decent tool for that job. But pre parry changes are also punished pretty hard. I would 100% be willing to consider other options beyond faster attacks and unblockables if someone would actually square up and make suggestions. No offense to you or others. But simply telling me "I want other ways" or "there could be better ways" without following through with an actual suggestion is just frustrating and it's certainly not helpful for me from an argument/debate standpoint. I know you don't enjoy absolute statements but I firmly believe with how blocking/defending works as is no other solutions could be offered beyond faster attacks and unblockables. Nerfing the rewards for defending is good. But they still haven't addressed how easy it is to defend.
I play on console my dude. So does plenty of other people I converse with here and off site. I'm by no means an amazing player. I'm above average when i'm at my best. And I don't struggle against aramusha's combos. I get that everyone's feelings and opinions are valid. At the same time you can't cater to absolutely every individual out there when it comes to balancing. And you can feel free to disagree with me as I don't know how experienced you are with any game in a competitive nature. But when it comes to balancing it's always best to look top down. If something is a problem in the lower brackets of play but not in most of the upper it's generally not considered a problem from a balance perspective. I will not claim to know the exact data on aramusha but i'm pretty sure the developers have stated before that aramusha isn't as big of a deal as a lot of people make it sound like on the forums according to their data. And I know my argument doesn't cover things form a philiosophical point of view and that it sucks to be dealing with something and told otherwise. But that's just how things are. there is no perfect situation. No perfect balance. etc. Please do not read too far into that statement. I'd rather not deal with a strawman.
I think centurions design concept is fantastic. I just think it fell short. I simply can't agree with gladiator. Because most of what he does doesn't confirm damage. It's a skill check people are being forced to deal with. Which people inherently don't enjoy. On top of that people were luled with poor OG character kits. The amount of moves on how much or how little is acceptable can be debated for hours. But you simply can't deny that a majority of the kits the game started with had no more than 4-5 moves that were even some what reliable and most heros relied on a gimmick rather than using their kit as a whole. Wardens gimmick is SB as an example. I like gladiator because he applies pressure without real damage. He's able to basically ignore someones defense entirely but again. No free damage. His damage entirely relies on you being able to out manuver your opponent. At a lower skill level you can absolutely spam his moves and win. But I'd argue that's possible with any of the kits and shouldn't be the crux of a debate on why his kit is bad. I honestly truly feel like the hate on him is 100% because of the amount of unblockables he has. No thought beyond that because the distaste is coming from the concept of unblockables.
I've never argued that peoples complaints are not valid. Or that peoples concerns are not legitimate. It may sound or feel like i'm saying as such when I list counters to the moves or counter points to said complaints. But i'm not saying that. Let me be clear. There is a difference. As an example. If I killed some guy that killed my wife. My reaction is valid. My feelings are valid. That doesn't mean me murdering the guy was okay. So by me disagreeing and debating over it i'm not saying that yours or anyone elses thoughts or opinions are not valid. I'm saying I disagree and this is why.
I shorten my responses often or they would all end up like walls trying to carefully adjust each sentence for each individual. When I say "one is 800ms that can be back dodged on reaction by basically anyone" i'm saying every hero in the game has a back dodge speed capable of dodging the move. and because the move is 800ms which is one of the most slowest moves in the game you should in theory be able to react to it providing you're at least decent at the game. If you would like me to elaborate my points more clearly in our future discussions i'd be more than happy to do that for you. Just specify what thing you'd like elaborated on. Anyway, I actually do account for 4v4. If you scroll through my post history for the past few months I do regularly try to say something along the lines of "I'm not sure how it is in 4v4" or "at least this is what it's like in dueling." So I do try to. People in return, should also seek to mention 4v4 much more often. As the vast majority of the posts I tend to respond to never specify. So yes while i'm at fault here so are others for not specifying.
I would love nothing more than to actually hop into 4v4. But as i've stated in the past I feel 4's are fundimentally flawed and I doubt I could get any serious mileage out of them without some drastic changes. Which i'd be more than happy to tell you if you want. I have stated them a few times on here before. I want to end this particular response by posing you a question. and I simply want a yes or no. And then we can go from there. My entire point of the wall was preceded with the concept that fast attacks and unblockables are not, by nature, inherently bad. And it seems you've missed this. So here is the question directly. Do you believe fast attacks and/or unblockables are flawed conceptually?
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At this point I probably should have learnt how to interpret your posts better, as you do most of the time, argue from a neutral point as objectively as possible, wording aside. I'll try to read less into your posts, and just focus on the points themselves.I could have actually worded that better sure.
I shorten my responses often or they would all end up like walls trying to carefully adjust each sentence for each individual.
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Personally, I'd like to have tested a build where blocking Lights didn't shut down chains. I think one of the contributing factor of cheese tactics/turtling, is how effect blocking is at shutting down the elemental, basic Heavy/Light attack combos. As Raider or Berserker, I often have to whiff or wallsplat someone to land a basic combo. It reduces the viable options players have to be aggressive to much safer, spammable moves.I truly honestly fail to see how you could make say conq's lights better without speeding them up. Lights by design (from how I understand the game) are meant to be quick and a way to do minimal health damage at the least.
This is just me though, the point is that there are other solutions available for consideration beyond faster lights, and more unblockables.
Going to cut myself off here, because while I could certainly go ahead and counter each of your points as I usually do (though I agree with several points, and could elaborate on many others), I don't think we'd reach a new conclusion that we haven't reached before, or indeed resolve the discussion anymore than we already have.
My opening paragraph also addresses several of your points concerning wording, which to your credit, you make a grand effort in correcting for my benefit, and to repeat myself; I'll strive to take your posts less personal, and read them with a more objective perspective.
No.So here is the question directly. Do you believe fast attacks and/or unblockables are flawed conceptually?
By no means are they flawed from the get-go. The flaw, to me, lies with the developers seemingly relying on increasing their prevalence in game as a solution to the Defensive Meta and lackluster kits, rather than working on the more difficult, underlying parts of the gameplay.
In short; They're reworking 12 Heroes, when they could make do with 6.
