Member
I don't know if this is just the games' mechanics being iffy, and I don't know if it's just a personality flaw of mine.
After playing Duels all day, I've come to a very grim conclusion.
I am utterly unable to enjoy this.
No matter the situation.
Even when I'm beating someone like it's my job, getting a perfect 3-0, it just... feels numb. All of it. It never feels like I'm actually improving, and never feels like any victory is actually earned. And there's barely any XP or leveling gain, so I can't take joy in that, either. Every time I win, at least with Kensei, it feels like it came about because the opponent wasn't paying enough attention, or because they decided to take pity on me. And when I lose, even when they don't win with spam, or cheese, or with some Mix-Up nonsense (yes, I still think that Mix-Ups are just glorified spamming tactics, but with a few extra steps), it always feels like I'm being cheated out of a win. Which makes me want to win, but then only results in me gaining no satisfaction from that win.
When someone beats me, it feels like I've learned nothing. Even after all of this time playing the game, I feel no wiser than when I started back in 2017, aside from learning a few cheap tricks and certain little logistical facts. It always feels like there's no real way to improve... at all. I even had someone say that I was spamming Light Attacks. My tactic, I think, was to throw out intermittent Light Attacks at random, unexpected intervals to shut down any Charges or combos. I don't know if I was spamming, or if the person in question just sucks at parrying (I was playing as Kensei, at the time), but it made me think about simply turning off the console. First people tell me that turtling is bad, then someone tells me to not go on the offensive. I mostly rely on rote response, anyway, so maybe I should just be defensive all the time.
I don't know if it's because I've never actually won anything of substance, before (in or out of game), but none of it ever feels GOOD. It's all just... a desperate attempt at victory and trying not to break my controller in half. Whenever I lose, no matter the circumstance, I feel the urge to strangle something small and defenseless. I'm not convinced that I'd be able to restrain myself if the opponent were suddenly teleported to my location. I'm a boxer for a reason.
For Honor attracted me because it seemed like the kind of game that I could be good at. The other multiplayer games I've had in the past have all been disasters in terms of my success in them. Halo, COD, XCOM, DOOM (2016), Battlefield, Assassins' Creed. The only game I truly excelled in was Halo 4, and I'm not even sure that that's valid. Halo: Reach is easier for me, these days, but not at the time. Back at the start of For Honor, I was an absolute monster. In and out of Dominion. Now, though... it's become a chore.
So. Has anyone else ever had this happen to them? Or do I have some sort of mental condition that makes me a sore loser and a dissatisfied winner? Is it the game, or am I simply not made for multiplayer?
Senior Member
The first thing that comes to mind is: Take a break from the game. That may not help, the very suggestion may in fact be irritating. However, some of the symptoms you're describing do sound rather like burn-out. The entire game is just uninteresting at the moment because the version of the game in your mind--the game you want to play--and the one in your console are different. The misalignment is causing something like ennui: expectations not being met combined with the constant hypocrisy of your opponents. "Stop light spamming" says the guy whose spam kept getting interrupted.
I've experienced something similar with this game and others. I've played for long enough that sometimes all I can think about is how clumsy and simplistic the game modes are. And nothing goes anywhere. It's like you said, there's no progression. Maybe a new colour scheme now and then, and new emblem every 100 hours of play, but for the most part the game's progression is the grind for Steel.
For Honor has also come to bore me with how its become a "standardized gaming" conformist. Beyond the original idea; the 3D combat system [Art of Battle], it's an exceptionally generic structure. The Faction War, for all its improvements, is still just ornamental. Nothing in the game means anything. And if I'm being honest, the constant barrage of new heroes this past year borderline ruined the game. If we can leave behind the conversation of balance and just talk fun, the new heroes are not fun to fight against. Defeating a Shaman feels like luck half the time; Cent parry timing is so awkward it's irritating just to watch. There's no rhythm to this stuff; it's turned playing into working; fun into a chore.
There's a gem of a game here somewhere; the premiere fantasy warrior simulator. But the constant barrage of spam reliant heroes, lazy game modes, spike infested reskins, and the utter lack of progression or conclusion to the hours spent makes that brilliance look more like hope. And hope fades.
Member
I wouldn't say it's you I think it's the way people play the game. I've been very discouraged lately playing 4s, dominion in particular. Despite the damn disconnects or the adjusting when players leave my issue is more with the people who play the game in PVP.
Lately I've been playing vs AI and the player count is lower so I'm usually paired with lower skilled players but they play the game better than people in PVP. I don't know what the real difference is but they usually have much higher rep levels than me so they must not play PVP so it doesn't read their true skill. I always face level 3 bots which I really like but are too easy as I only die 1-2 times per match. The game is always a win and there is no real ganking or terrible play by teammates. I really enjoy the game but it is too easy vs AI. The teams are random but we kind of pair up 2 and 2 and take control of the zones. It works well.
Now in a recent PVP game, Sentinel, I joined late and saw 2 of my team was in zone A and it was a 2v3 so I wan to help. I got there and quickly took out the most wounded one, one of my team went down and I beat the that foe. My other teammate finished off the other opponent. I started to revive my fallen teammate and was hit stopping the revive and I said "ok." My teammate then revived him and spammed "I got this." We stayed at that zone until 2 of them returned. I backed up ready for the attack and noticed my teammates had left. I fought until I got revenge then retreated as I knocked them down. It turned into a 3v1 as I ran away and died. The rest of the match it was a 3 or 4 player gank running around and we lost. All the other team was better at controlling the gank than we were at stopping them. So every encounter was frustrating. My teammates were annoying and the gank squad sucked.
It seems that every PVP game I get into it is just a matter of who has a better gank. Playing on either side is not fun. The game is better playing vs AI than people. I don't feel I'm growing as a player vs AI as I can react to what ever they throw at me. In PVP it much more of a challenge as it seems I'm 50/50 lately in that mode. So when I think I'm getting better and feel good I get smacked around vs people and wonder what is going on. This game is great but really frustrating and terrible at the same time......
Senior Member
Holy moley, you have described everything I have been thinking lately.
I am a Kensei main, and I totally feel your pain. I played a player today, rep 17 warden. I EASILY smashed him with my rep 4 aramusha. He just couldn’t hang with how quick the chain with my non stop barrage of all kinds of fients. Enter my Kensei at round 2. You FEEL the total difference. People who deny the tier system and say “it’s all about player skill” is full of crap. I understand there are reworks but here’s what is EXTREAMLY annoying at least as a Kensei main:
-when using him I have to work harder than playing with nearly any other cast memeber to achieve similar results
-players who turtle and are good at it (can parry lights on console) literally are almost impossible as the only viable way as a Kensei to force any sort of reaction is the UB chain finisher which means getting a 3 string chain without parry started or wait for an attack and go for the dodge attack into top heavy UB which is stupidly parryable even for the crappiest of player reflexes. This leads to my next point....
- EVEN if against said turtle you can get the UB heavy off, it again is SO much work just to make something out of it. You have to come up with some elaborate nonsense with 3 dang fients just to not get punished for the damage equivalent of one heavy
- now on the other hand, all the other players who the mix ups just are too easy to do against them. They suck the fun out of the game by making my elaborate skills unnecessary. The same kind of people who the whole duel you can literally dodge attack, top UB into soft feint side heavy as the try to dodge. You’d be surprised even at high levels how bad some players are at adjusting. You think I’m crazy for saying so? Literally just played a rep 40 orochi who I 3-0 dueled with this exact scenario. He picked up the soft fient round 3, in which I stopped the soft fient and went into hard cencel GB. One simple change to keep the destruction train on course. BORING!
You can probably guess I’m very excited to see the reworks, but from what I saw it looked like the UB finisher can just go to any side now. I heard about a pommel hit but have yet to hear or see anything about it.
For honors biggest problem for me is: I’m stuck in a very specific skill location. At the cusps of diamond tier type of play but my reaction times (despite trying hard to make them better) just can’t seem to improve so I fall slightly short. The problem is everyone below that with Kensei at least (he is my main) are just generally not skilled enough to handle the way I play with him unless they again are complete turtle gods.
This leaves my playing to either working so dang hard just to loose or that I could basically play one handed and go 3-0 with how simplistic and easy it is to do a successful mix up.
The problem here though, is like you said. I literally CANT get better with my main. I know everything to expect, everyone’s kits, my reaction time just isn’t improving and I’ve capped the personal level skill my main has to offer for someone with my reaction time (my record being 320 something ms, HORRIBLE). I literally have such strong intuition about what each character will do next when I’m playing them that it surpasses my need to even have reaction time until higher up in the rankings. Even then it’s not a “I should have done that better”, it’s more of a “I shouldn’t have taken the risk to attempt a parry while OOS or that in comparison to their attack speed Half my attacks are useless as they just 400ms light spam me out of the start up”. The battle isn’t exciting anymore, it’s extreamly predictable and that being said, once your opponent realizes this, they resolve to using only thier cheesiest moves to try and salvage the damage thier predictablity has already done leaving the rest of the match to completely monotonous spamming of moves or they resolve to turtling.
And THEN like you said. I was playing HL yesterday. Some guy kept trying to Gb spam me, also a high rep orochi (what’s with orochis?) and I got a hate message cause I caught on and just kept throwing a top light whenever he would go for the another GB. He got MAD at me because he was so idiotically readable and spammy with his GBs that he allowed me to continuously punish him for it with one of the slowest light attacks in the game.
I think overall, the joy taken away from this game lies in the ganks (unless they’re complete trash, your opponents outnumbering you 3 to 1 will result in auto loss 9/10 and same Vic versa, your team ganging up against 1 is a death sentence for them), the in between skill pockets, the lack of ability to further master your character you’ve been maining for a year, the “win more” style feat system, the disconnects, the lag which makes a CGB or crushing counter strike more of a coin toss than a smart counter move, the HUGE gaps of options and strength in characters, turtles, spammers and just overall toxic players. All ruining the game. They have fixes coming, but let’s be real: players will always look for that free guaranteed damage, they won’t stop ganking, you can raise the skill caps by balancing characters but eventually you’ll reach your personal skill Cap with that character again, and the toxic player base isn’t going anywhere, and if it does that means for honor has actually died instead of “being dead”.
Anyways, sorry for the novel. My vent session is complete. Fingers crossed for good changes, props for the already sound ones coming soon.
Member
All of your opinions are amazing and I totally agree with all of you .
When for honor first came out it was amazing , I waited a hole year for it . Then the new hero’s came out and it went down hill from there . The game felt completely different and has never been the same .
Like you all said there is no progression what so ever .
I might bore you alittle but now but ......I used to play COD modern warfare , okay but progression was boring . Then killsone2 came out (stay with we ) completely different style with built in tournaments system and a whole clan system with amazing clan battles all in game .
Basically get rid of that silly stupid fraction wars because nobody cares and put a real system inside based on fun .
And the reason nobody plays ranked mode is because it’s the same system mobile games use like clash of clans , bronze league, silver league etc how boring and perfetic
Member
Another thing that bother me after playing for a while is I wonder what am I playing for? My kensei is rep 17, orochi is 28, aramusha is 5 and that's it....I don't care for other heroes and don't care for anything you get as you level them. I run the same looking gear and have the stats where I want them so I just salvage all my loot at the end of a match which is tedious. Play, salvage, ready...
For kensei I run a dominion build, tribute build and a duel build so what ever mode I do I look the same and the feats if they are used are set per build. For orochi I have a revenge build, attacking build and a duel build so at least I go back and forth between the first 2 depending on my opponents. Aramusha I just do 1 build for all as the feats don't change nor do I like other looks than what I have.
It says I've been playing pvp for over 8 days and total over 17 days and I turn it on out of habit. Aramusha I am ok vs level 3 bots but people I can't hit unless I do the combo which I hate doing and try to just do that for minions. Orochi I just aim to do decflects but in pvp it's just about impossible. I can do it in duel and vs Ai so hopefully servers will help that. But that's the only real reason I play him. He runs fast which is nice and I like his look but there is no point to get to level 40 or now 50. You get nothing. My kensei I do the best with but he runs so slow! The rework will be nice as there are more moves to try. But that will get old too.
There is no real reward for playing a character for so long and I'm not the type who wants to try everyone. Playing 10 dominion games in a row while 5 of them don't finish due to errors is annoying. So you play vs AI and that it too easy even against level 3 bots. So you try a tribute and everyone runs around like roaches instead trying to win. Shugoki's capturing flags instead of guarding them, getting the flag knocked out of you by your teammate so your teammate can place it, it's a mess. I tried duels recently and it's a staring contest waiting for someone to attack and make a mistake to parry them. Sure parry changes but no will just attack cause a parry is easy to do even if the reward is just a light. Parrying is much easier to do than deflect and why deflect if a parry is guarantee except it looks cool.
We need some new modes and reasons to keep leveling our favorite heroes. Servers will only do so much, if we get bored with the modes and there is no incentive to keep leveling heroes it doesn't matter how smooth the game is. It is great game and I like the fighting system but we need more things to do and a reason to keep going. Devs do keep tweaking thinks, not always what I want but at least it's something I guess. Hopefully whenever servers get here they have a bunch of modes waiting to keep us going.
Senior Member
This right here says it all, and I agree completely.There's a gem of a game here somewhere; the premiere fantasy warrior simulator. But the constant barrage of spam reliant heroes, lazy game modes, spike infested reskins, and the utter lack of progression or conclusion to the hours spent makes that brilliance look more like hope. And hope fades.
I've seen some players say that the new heroes are the result of the developers becoming better at designing heroes, but I don't believe that. The new heroes were designed in such a way, that the entirety of Season 5 will be spent re-balancing the 12 original heroes, rather than the 6 DLC ones. That's bad design, and a lot of players have also expressed a dislike for one or more aspects of the new heroes, and making the Vanilla roster more like them surely isn't the way to go.But the constant barrage of spam reliant heroes
I can't see this route being the right one, but I'll reserve final judgement for the actual Season 5 launch.
Agreed. I do hope that dedicated servers opens up much more potential for bigger, more intricate gamemodes. More minions, more heroes, bigger maps, tempered pace.lazy game modes
In my headcanon, I hope that a bigger gamemode (6v6 for example) set on a large scale map would discourage ganking, and group ups, allowing for more 1v1s, 1v2s and 2v2s in a Dominion style game, rather than spamfest ganksquads we're seeing now.
Honestly, there are skins that should never have made it past one interns comment at a pitch meeting. Look at the Procyon shoulders for the Berserker; http://alfalis.de/For_Fashion/img/ge..._a_procyon.jpgspike infested reskins
All this does, is cover up 95% of whatever patterns, symbols or engravings you've put on your shoulders. Stuff like this should never have made it into the game. I'd much rather have gone a season or two without any new armors, than get stuff like that.
Quite right. Emotes, or Effects, even Executions could have been tied into progression instead of the increasingly stupid amount of symbols none of us will ever use.and the utter lack of progression or conclusion to the hours spent makes that brilliance look more like hope.
So much of what ended up in the game, should never have made it past 1 pitch meeting, but they have, and the compounding effect is Archo, Okita, Stark and Pablo feeling the way they do, and they're perfectly justified in feeling that way.
Senior Member
I know this feeling.Originally Posted by mrmistark Go to original post
I've poured many hours into this game; I have a fairly comprehensive knowledge of how everything words, but I just don't put in the time to stay sharp against light spam and such. As a consequence I either get disheartened by turtle lords or I feel like a bully. It's becoming increasingly rare to find a fight that I don't win almost immediately or I get bug bit to death over the course of five minutes because my opponent refuses to ever do anything: staring simulator 2017.
I lost a duel recently to a raider. It was a close fight. I mucked up a crushing counter versus his stunning tap and lost the tie breaker. But It honestly felt good losing that fight because he actually wanted to play. We were both being aggressive and were on pretty even footing for the most part.
And then I was in a match where an Orochi kept doing the same three things and kept dying the same three ways.
I'd duel my friends more but you get literally no progression for custom matches, so...yay for incentives, right?
Yeah, I've heard that before too. And I also don't agree.Originally Posted by Tundra 793 Go to original post
I think For Honor was very clear about what it was trying to be, and I think these spam reliant heroes are exactly the opposite of that; they turn the game into a battle of reaction speeds. Instead of revising the parry system, we got characters who were more difficult to parry. Now the parry system is revised so we have a weak parry and chaotic/quick characters.
The absence of any Vanguards or Heavies in the DLC is telling.
Yeah, I do too. I really want to see larger scales battles that last for longer (yield more rewards).Agreed. I do hope that dedicated servers opens up much more potential for bigger, more intricate gamemodes. More minions, more heroes, bigger maps, tempered pace.
In my headcanon, I hope that a bigger gamemode (6v6 for example) set on a large scale map would discourage ganking, and group ups, allowing for more 1v1s, 1v2s and 2v2s in a Dominion style game, rather than spamfest ganksquads we're seeing now.
What about a Dominion style mode that slowly progressed; siege towers and the likes against a massive wall or something. The attackers need to hold positions for X amount of XP/time to progress deeper into the citadel, where A, B, and C would progress to new locations. The Defenders need to hold the attackers back for long enough for the match to end (when the proverbial King Theoden arrives). If the attackers win (by holding the "Keep" for X amount of points/time), there should be a tangible effect on the faction war.
The minions and captains would play a much larger role too. Have them going at each other in different areas as the attackers are pushing forward or being held back. Maybe give the defenders options to use the environment against an overwhelming force of AI. You know, have the battle asymmetrical. As it stands, being attacker or defender in Dominion changes your colours...nothing else.
While we're sharing: this helm, these arms, and my face.Honestly, there are skins that should never have made it past one interns comment at a pitch meeting. Look at the Procyon shoulders for the Berserker; http://alfalis.de/For_Fashion/img/ge..._a_procyon.jpg
All this does, is cover up 95% of whatever patterns, symbols or engravings you've put on your shoulders. Stuff like this should never have made it into the game. I'd much rather have gone a season or two without any new armors, than get stuff like that.
Senior Member
I can some what relate.
Most of my wins don't feel like wins because I beat someone who clearly just couldn't react well enough. Instead of me simply out smarting them/out mind gaming them.
And I haven't learned anything new beyond counters/character kits for months. I personally feel this is because for honor is, at it's base, too simplistic.
Since i'm in an open no filter mood today i'll just throw this out there.
I'm not happy with how "fast and spammy" for honor is becoming.
I ENJOY the idea of base for honor. that being more akin to fencing.
So why do I support these new changes? Honestly? because I find this style of play more fun than the "block forever because you can see everything a mile away" style of play the game was like before the dlc. I came from the souls series looking for a challenge. The "art of battle" system was very daunting to begin with and because I didn't pick it up immediately and struggled for awhile to actually get decent with it I thought the game was amazing.
Turns out it wasn't. and still isn't. There is nothing inherently wrong with being simplistic and it's clear from the base game design plus early discussions with the devs that they were never catering or even thought about a competitive base. They were just a group of people who had a fantasy. I 100% feel like the DLC heros were used as a base to try and give this crowd what they wanted. The issue here for me is that for honor could have been simplistic but also had depth.
If the game was more about what you did with the mechanics to make yourself a good fighter rather than simply using your character to the fullest to trump others in stacked fights it would be more of what I wanted.
Dark souls was incredibly simplistic mechanically. but people learned to use that to create depth, discover tech, and overall give the game the depth. Ultimately it lacked polish. that kind of shine you need for a good game to be a viable competitive game. For honor in many ways worse in both regards. It's mechanics didn't give depth. just exploits that only worked well with some heros. and it didn't have the polish. I'd say post parry changes in season 5 the polish i'm looking for would mostly be there.
But this games main issue is the heros. Both OG and dlc. both have strengths and flaws. I simply struggle to understand why other fighting games manage to have kits and depth to them and not have this kind of issue. the only reason I can come up with is for honors base mechanics. But that's such a vague statement I can't quantify or give a decent conversation on it to help someone understand.
Anyway i'm rambling. I think that for honor should continue this current path. Just for consistency sake. Some people quite enjoy this and i'd rather they try to retain this playerbase than try to go through another year long cycle to address another playerbase of this game. I think that the rest of year 2 should be finishing polishing up the game and then just doing minor support like bug fixes, perhaps minor character balancing. and maybe some new weapons/armor. and another free map or 2. But I don't think we should get more heros at this point. Even if they did manage to find a good middle ground for both the dlc heros and the OG roster.
Instead after most major things are dealt with i'd rather they make a "for honor 2." Really run with their original idea of a fencer game. And try to re approach it. use For honor to understand what didn't work. And potentially bring in fresh eyes. Because I enjoy the art of battle system. It's unique and there is deff something there. I just firmly believe a new title with some fresh eyes along side some people from the OG project would be the best way to handle things.
Senior Member
I agree with this. Once everything is said and done and balanced out they should leave it and make a new game farther in the future.Originally Posted by Knight_Raime Go to original post
I think thier BIGGEST problem with what you said wasn’t mechanics or the character kits, more the lack of character customization. The core mechanic is beautiful. It works, it’s complex yet simple. It’s what got the majority of us sucked in.
The problem is that the ONLY customization in game is colors, symbols, and gear.
“Gear customization” apart from looks is a laughing matter though. In general, thanks to defense penetration, there really is a very clear cut way to set up your hero’s stats leaving really only a couple different VIABLE gear builds depending on player preference of revenge duration vs defense and execution health regen vs revive speed. The rest are pretty easily selected.
What do most games have that help create a less monotonous and polished game? CHOICES.
For for honor 2, I think they need to take this idea and run with it. Same core system, but give CHOICES!
My dream of for honor 2:
Before you do anything, you have 6 character slots. You pick that slot, make or female, customize your heros overall facial and bodily structure, and choose a faction. Start the game in a mandatory tutorial mode with a “mentor/teacher” character of that faction. After a basic understanding of the game and each generalized weapon type, you complete your training and are brought to the armory. Here you can choose what primary weapon type you want, your mentor asks, “so, what kind of weapon are you looking for?” And enter response:
TWO HANDED: focuses on heavy hits attack in general
-axes, swords, spears, clubs, staffs, maces, ect.
WEAPON AND SHIELD: focuses on defense and disabling moves
- sword and shield/spear/flail/ect.
DUEL WIELD: focuses on speed and dexterity
- swords, axes, mix of both, ect.
Once you choose the type of weapon you can choose between what weapon you want, some examples:
Firstly, each weapon you can choose will have a diagram of what you are getting. Think of a hexagon with range, damage, speed/dexterity, defense, and stamina at each point with a pinpoint on each part of the hexagon where that specific weapon compares to the others. For instance, a war hammer would have damage and range pinpoints close to those points of the hexagon, but speed/dexterity and stamina not so much. Adversely a short sword and shield would be a high peak defense with decent speed/dexterity and stamina but bad range. You get The idea. They also have different chains to go with them, Spears, smaller weapons ect. would be more light oriented, while larger weapons would be a mix of both light and heavies. Depending on the weapon, you also get two basic properties: smaller weapons give various deflects and follow ups, shield weapons give superior Block properties and potential for HA heavies or CC, heavy weapons give UB finishers and in between weapons can sometimes have HA on heavies ect.
After you chose your weapon, you can pick a special property with your chains and one with your neutrals:
- give chain finisher or in chain finishers, varrying on bleed damage, Ub, HA, soft fients ect.
- neutrals would include Ub slow heavies, medium speed HA heavies, CC with follow up, ect.
All of these would be a branch option type deal kind of like other PvP fighting games.
Anyways, that’s be awesome in my opinion. It truely would make combat completely unpredictable and interesting with every encounter. The important part is balancing of all the choices so no single option is too Op.
